[RamblerBoy]

Why do people tell that neutral headphones often aren't fun listening to? but i always thought they already apply necessary eq's to songs/albums before shipping them out.
so wouldn't neutral headphones produce the aspects of sound exactly as the artists and their team intended and wouldn't that be more realistic? because mixers eq songs to make them sound their best in the first place right?
i know subjectivity comes into account too.

 

[watchnerd]

  mixers eq songs to make them sound their best in the first place right?
 

 
No, that's not right, at least not for popular music.  It's mixed to sound good on a wide variety system, which means compromises to the lower common denominators.
 
Also, when you're mixing, you're looking portability, i.e. does the mix still sound as intended when you switch from different sets of speakers and phones.
 
Also, dance music is a major curve ball: clubs typically have a HUGE boost in the low end so the mix has to account for that. In fact, one of the subs that match JBL's LSR series has a switch specifically designed to mimic a dance club.  A mix made to sound good in a club isn't going to sound right on neutral cans.
 
That being said, the mixing culture and goals for jazz and classical music are quite a bit different and geared towards listeners with better listening environments / gear.

 

[castleofargh]

also neutral headphone is more of a general direction of signature. there isn't even a defined neutral signature for headphones(or more like there are plenty of different ones). the generally used diffuse field compensation to show headphone measurements for example, I don't believe many people find a headphone flat on it to actually sound neutral.

 

[RamblerBoy]

Quote:

   
No, that's not right, at least not for popular music.  It's mixed to sound good on a wide variety system, which means compromises to the lower common denominators.
 
Also, when you're mixing, you're looking portability, i.e. does the mix still sound as intended when you switch from different sets of speakers and phones.
 
Also, dance music is a major curve ball: clubs typically have a HUGE boost in the low end so the mix has to account for that. In fact, one of the subs that match JBL's LSR series has a switch specifically designed to mimic a dance club.  A mix made to sound good in a club isn't going to sound right on neutral cans.
 
That being said, the mixing culture and goals for jazz and classical music are quite a bit different and geared towards listeners with better listening environments / gear.

that's interesting. thanks.
 
 

  also neutral headphone is more of a general direction of signature. there isn't even a defined neutral signature for headphones(or more like there are plenty of different ones). the generally used diffuse field compensation to show headphone measurements for example, I don't believe many people find a headphone flat on it to actually sound neutral.

thanks.
i understand that human ears amplify the higher end of the spectrum and everything related to audio differs with anatomy. but how about the method used by Dave Rat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJh8B1QfEn0) in his tests to find the most neutral ones? according to his test sony mdr-cd3000 is the most neutral among the ones he own. it shows an almost flat response. though it wouldn't replicate a human ear, can't we consider that as a standard? or are there other flaws in his test?

 

[Music Alchemist]

It depends on so many factors. I'm too lazy to explain it all in detail, but basically, when it comes to enjoyment of music, I think it's best to experiment and discover what is most enjoyable to you with all sorts of music, gear, and DSP settings.
 

  the generally used diffuse field compensation to show headphone measurements for example, I don't believe many people find a headphone flat on it to actually sound neutral.

 
http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9e/9e4d6e60_STAX_SR-207_SB2217.png
http://cdn.head-fi.org/6/6d/6de6f4f3_STAX_SR-207_EP-507_SB2217.png
 
The STAX SR-207 follows the diffuse-field curve (green line) much more closely than any other headphone I know of, and it easily sounds more neutral to me than anything else. (And trust me, I hate when headphones are too bright/harsh.)

 

[castleofargh]

Originally Posted by RamblerBoy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
thanks.
i understand that human ears amplify the higher end of the spectrum and everything related to audio differs with anatomy. but how about the method used by Dave Rat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJh8B1QfEn0) in his tests to find the most neutral ones? according to his test sony mdr-cd3000 is the most neutral among the ones he own. it shows an almost flat response. though it wouldn't replicate a human ear, can't we consider that as a standard? or are there other flaws in his test?

it's not necessarily a bad idea what he's doing in the video, but it's clearly not accounting for some ear canal resonances. depending on how he places the mic the 3khz might be wrong, and something around 10khz also is boosted in the ear, and I doubt it would show that way.
also of course the mic used would need to be calibrated.
but in the end his idea of flat follows electrical flat. it's not a bad compensation at all and I'd be fine if it was accepted as audio standard for headphones like it is for amps or DACs already.  but an electrically flat headphone does not sound neutral IMO.
look at Alchi's graphs for the stax, the measure at the bottom is RAW so when a headphone measure is a flat line there, then it's electrically flat(again with a mic that is good and compensated). you see how the 3khz rise on the stax that Alchi calls neutral. all "neutral" sounding headphones have a bump in the 2.5 to 3.5khz area. this has to do with our anatomy and an electrically flat 3khz isn't bad, but does sound a little recessed.
 
if you're curious about this I suggest you look at this vid

lot of good information in it regarding the ear and the limits of measurements IMO.
 

  It depends on so many factors. I'm too lazy to explain it all in detail, but basically, when it comes to enjoyment of music, I think it's best to experiment and discover what is most enjoyable to you with all sorts of music, gear, and DSP settings.
 

  the generally used diffuse field compensation to show headphone measurements for example, I don't believe many people find a headphone flat on it to actually sound neutral.

 
http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9e/9e4d6e60_STAX_SR-207_SB2217.png
http://cdn.head-fi.org/6/6d/6de6f4f3_STAX_SR-207_EP-507_SB2217.png
 
The STAX SR-207 follows the diffuse-field curve (green line) much more closely than any other headphone I know of, and it easily sounds more neutral to me than anything else. (And trust me, I hate when headphones are too bright/harsh.)

aren't the top lines the diffuse field compensation applied? if that was flat would you feel like it sounds neutral? I tried and I don't.
my perceived neutral on headphone seems to be somewhere between diffuse field and the harman target, so I would most likely find this stax to sound rather neutral(never tried).
for vented IEMs I also like about the same kind of FR. and for sealed IEMs I seem to prefer more bass and more rolled off trebles for some reason. but in the end I can't say if my perception of neutral would fit other people so I join you on this, "it's best to experiment and discover what is most enjoyable to you"

 

[Music Alchemist]

aren't the top lines the diffuse field compensation applied? if that was flat would you feel like it sounds neutral? I tried and I don't.

 
Ignore the top lines. You need to look at the raw (actual) grey measurements and how closely they follow the green line.
 
It is also worth noting that planar magnetics (which are regarded as having neutral bass) follow the green diffuse-field curve in the bass, not the black Harman curve.
 
What do you mean by you tried, though? You should hear the headphones if you want to hear what I am talking about. If you casually attempt to boost frequencies in another headphone, it's more likely to sound awful, because it's not a simple thing to do.

 

[RamblerBoy]

  it's not necessarily a bad idea what he's doing in the video, but it's clearly not accounting for some ear canal resonances. depending on how he places the mic the 3khz might be wrong, and something around 10khz also is boosted in the ear, and I doubt it would show that way.
also of course the mic used would need to be calibrated.
but in the end his idea of flat follows electrical flat. it's not a bad compensation at all and I'd be fine if it was accepted as audio standard for headphones like it is for amps or DACs already.  but an electrically flat headphone does not sound neutral IMO.
look at Alchi's graphs for the stax, the measure at the bottom is RAW so when a headphone measure is a flat line there, then it's electrically flat(again with a mic that is good and compensated). you see how the 3khz rise on the stax that Alchi calls neutral. all "neutral" sounding headphones have a bump in the 2.5 to 3.5khz area. this has to do with our anatomy and an electrically flat 3khz isn't bad, but does sound a little recessed.
 
if you're curious about this I suggest you look at this vid
 
lot of good information in it regarding the ear and the limits of measurements IMO.
 
aren't the top lines the diffuse field compensation applied? if that was flat would you feel like it sounds neutral? I tried and I don't.
my perceived neutral on headphone seems to be somewhere between diffuse field and the harman target, so I would most likely find this stax to sound rather neutral(never tried).
for vented IEMs I also like about the same kind of FR. and for sealed IEMs I seem to prefer more bass and more rolled off trebles for some reason. but in the end I can't say if my perception of neutral would fit other people so I join you on this, "it's best to experiment and discover what is most enjoyable to you"

 
thank you for explaining it.