[strokerace]

it's been a while since i last posted...but after more lurking i'm ready for another huge post, haha.

my deejaying days are long gone and i have 2 busted up technics 1200mk2's that i got more than 7 years ago used. they both need to be serviced as the sound in one channel is going out and the rca's and pitch slider need to be replaced. one is even missing a foot. they look awful since the previous owner used cheap gold spray paint on them and put some stupid stickers on top...

they are stock, one with a stanton 500al2 cart (probly needs new stylus) and one with a shure m447. when i first got them, the shure cart sounded ok but was very bassy and muddy. i no longer use these tables, and instead use my dad's early 80's sony turntable with automatic arm which sadly sounds almost on par with the busted technics. or maybe my dj mixer and little yamaha computer speakers are my limiting factor (tascam xs-8/ecler hak320 to yamaha yst-50 speaks or senn hd280 phones)



now i really want to upgrade as i've begun to collect more vinyl but can't spend too much. $300-$500 seems about right, but i don't know which path to take. ideally i'd like to keep at least one technics to scratch on, most likely the one that's most complete (all four feet, hehe), and then have one turntable for listening only. here's a few options i came up with:

A) should i get a brand new turntable and just enjoy it out of the box? there are regas and project tables for around $400-$500, right? and maybe sell one of the technics and fix the other...

B) should i get both the technics serviced (~$50-$100 ea. locally) and upgrade one of them (arm damping/tonearm/ext. PSU/whatever)? from what i've read, this is way out of my budget but i'll let the experts throw out suggestions. maybe upgrade in steps..?

C) service one or both the technics and buy a vintage table to mod.

D) keep saving up and buy up more vinyl in the meantime

keep in mind my ~$500 budget should include the cartridges too, but from what i hear the grado carts are affordable compared to the ~$75+ shure cart i got to scratch with.


any input is appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by strokerace /img/forum/go_quote.gif it's been a while since i last posted...but after more lurking i'm ready for another huge post, haha. my deejaying days are long gone and i have 2 busted up technics 1200mk2's that i got more than 7 years ago used. they both need to be serviced as the sound in one channel is going out and the rca's and pitch slider need to be replaced. one is even missing a foot. they look awful since the previous owner used cheap gold spray paint on them and put some stupid stickers on top... they are stock, one with a stanton 500al2 cart (probly needs new stylus) and one with a shure m447. when i first got them, the shure cart sounded ok but was very bassy and muddy. i no longer use these tables, and instead use my dad's early 80's sony turntable with automatic arm which sadly sounds almost on par with the busted technics. or maybe my dj mixer and little yamaha computer speakers are my limiting factor (tascam xs-8/ecler hak320 to yamaha yst-50 speaks or senn hd280 phones) now i really want to upgrade as i've begun to collect more vinyl but can't spend too much. $300-$500 seems about right, but i don't know which path to take. ideally i'd like to keep at least one technics to scratch on, most likely the one that's most complete (all four feet, hehe), and then have one turntable for listening only. here's a few options i came up with: A) should i get a brand new turntable and just enjoy it out of the box? there are regas and project tables for around $400-$500, right? and maybe sell one of the technics and fix the other... B) should i get both the technics serviced (~$50-$100 ea. locally) and upgrade one of them (arm damping/tonearm/ext. PSU/whatever)? from what i've read, this is way out of my budget but i'll let the experts throw out suggestions. maybe upgrade in steps..? C) service one or both the technics and buy a vintage table to mod. D) keep saving up and buy up more vinyl in the meantime keep in mind my ~$500 budget should include the cartridges too, but from what i hear the grado carts are affordable compared to the ~$75+ shure cart i got to scratch with. any input is appreciated, thanks in advance.

Since you seem to be unsure what you want, make one good turntable from the two if you can and install a Denon DL-110 or DL-160 cartridge on it and give it a listen. This is just common sense. Once you have a better what the basic turntable is capable of, you will have a better idea of what to do with the leftover parts.

 

[strokerace]

that means i'd have to fix one of them back up to at least stock form. sounds like a plan.

one thing i'm worried about is their condition. can one of these direct drive tables be abused so much that they'll never sound right again? i guess i should take it to an experienced technician so he can tell me if it's worth it to repair or if the cost of components that need to be replaced exceeds the price of a new/less abused one.

i guess i'll keep an eye out for any upcoming meets in the SoCal area...i haven't really had a chance to listen to real equipment. i don't know any audiophiles who will let me sample their setups (let alone someone who has a vinyl setup not for DJing).

 

[memepool]

Technics take a lot of abuse. Unless they've been around in flightcases all over the place and dropped repeatedly (which is usually the case with gigged ex-rental examples) then the motors should be ok which is the main thing.

You can check this with a doctors stethoscope or just by putting an empty glass on the plinth and listening to it close to your ear. If you hear grinding or any rhythmic scrapes or tapping noises then the bearings are knackered and this is expensive to fix requiring a complete strip down and rebuild. In car terms it would be a write-off.

The most common problem with 1200s is the arm bearings get trashed from too much scratching and wear and tear. Again you can tell this from the tell tale rattles or excess movement in the arm wand. Try to wiggle it gently between thumb and forefinger like the mnotion of rolling a cigarette and if it moves at all it needs replacing.

KAB ELECTRO ACOUSTICS carry all the spares including the feet and replacement plinth covers and these arn't too expensive individually but of course it all adds up. Sorbothane pods are actually better and probably cheaper than the original feet anyway if you don't plan on moving the decks around too much.

The stock arms arn't really worth repairing if they are knackered and you are much better off looking at replacements from Rega/Origin Live or else Jelco.
A full list of further upgrade ideas can be found here

Most of this stuff you can do yourself gradually.

In terms of getting the most return on your 500 bucks I'd say a new stylus is going to be necessary from the sound you've described. Stanton do make a much better needle for the 500 called the 510EE and you can even get a Jico SAS Phonograph Stylus for the M44.

Either of these would benefit from a lower mass magnesium headshell to get the arm mass down. Stanton HS-4 is cheap but an old ADC off ebay is also a very good buy. Also it should go without saying you shouldn't scratch or backspin with an eliptical needle like either of these on there so some more basic conical tips will also be required.

The only audiophile cart capable of taking DJ kind of punishment is a Denon DL103 but bear in mind it's a moving coil so a bent needle means a whole new cart. Also you would need a better pre-amp for this as it's a low output model. The other Denon's Ssportclay mentions will work with the Ecler though but again have eliptical stylii so you'd need to have them mounted on separate headshells or else dedicate one deck to playback and one to scratching as you say.

The Ecler is a decent enough mixer so the phonostage is pretty resonable but obviously an audiophile one like the Cambridge Audio 640P will better it when funds allow.

I'd also budget for new speakers pretty soon as the Yamaha ones you have arn't really upto much. For DJ monitoring and listening you should get some far better active nearfield monitors. Yamaha MSP5 or 7 would be ideal or else you can get slightly cheaper ones from JBL, Tannoy, Adam, KRK etc.

 

[strokerace]

awesome, thanks for the info.

i'll use those methods to test it out. if funds allow in the future, i plan to keep one 1200 for scratching and then having the other one set up for listening. i guess if i don't replace the arm i could still use the modded one by replacing the headshell/stylus so that i can practice beat juggling, hehe. would the shure m447 with the jico stylus be better than the previously suggested denon dl-110

besides the needle and headshell and assuming all the innards are working close to stock form, what would be the next best upgrade? the arm damping system, external psu, tonearm? also, when i get them recabled what kind of rca's would be ideal? don't know how hard it is to install a removable cable, but i'm just thinking about the sound quality. the stock ones look iffy.

i guess i should get them back up to stock form first and buy a new cart to test it out. like the previous person mentioned.

i just found out my dad's old kenwood ka-7100 is working again, though it needs some cleaning/servicing to get rid of all the weird crackling. plus i don't have any speakers to try, except for some old bose ones, so i've just been running some computer speakers through the headphone plug. i can also try using my jbl eon 15's through the ecler, but i have no room, hehe. with my hd280's i kinda like the ecler's headphone output compared to the kenwood's at the moment.

i'm looking into getting some used bookshelf speaks to use with the kenwood and maybe using the ecler as a temporary preamp to the aux input in the kenwood..? not sure if that would even be an improvement over using the phono in the kenwood. if i can get my computer to output through the hd out of the onboard envy24pt in windows 7, it would make a decent source until i get my vinyl setup really going.

anyone know any cheap local repair shops in the los angeles area? i found one guy in hermosa beach who goes by the name thorsten and says he can do most repairs in an hour for $20, and replace rca's for $35. i'd try the rca's myself but have very little soldering experience.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by strokerace /img/forum/go_quote.gif i guess if i don't replace the arm i could still use the modded one by replacing the headshell/stylus so that i can practice beat juggling, hehe. would the shure m447 with the jico stylus be better than the previously suggested denon dl-110

The Shure with Jico stylus would be pretty formidable alright giving you the next best thing to a classic high end MM like the Shure V15 Series.

Dropping the arm mass with a magnesium headshell or else getting a more modern arm would be beneficial though. The Denon's work well in the older style tonearms with removeable headshells like the Technics one but are also happy in more modern medium mass tonearms.

So either way you won't loose out if you spend money on an expensive cart and then decide to upgrade the tonearm. I have a pair of Vestax PDT-5000's where I've modded one with a Rega RB250 and Denon 103 and left the tonearm on the other stock with various classic Stanton carts like the 681EEE (680 series are also worth checking). I also have an Ecler, a SMAC42, which doesn't really have enough gain for the Denon 103 though.

Havn't had much time to play around with tweaking all this stuff recently but the choices are really between keeping the original arms and the flexibility of being able to swop out headshells or else having fixed headshell arms like the Rega with a cart with a choice of conical and hyperelliptical / microline tips which can be swopped out.

Changing headshells means completely rebalancing the arm whereas swopping stylii can be done without this to a degree, although it's better to fine tweek the tracking weight, as it can differ by upto a few grams, to find the sweet spot for different tips, as in effect you are also changing the compliance of the cart.

Despite the slight lack of convenience the Rega arm is actually great for DJ'ing being very sturdy and in sound terms it brings a lot of authority to the table, especially in bass slam on those 808/909 kick drums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strokerace /img/forum/go_quote.gif besides the needle and headshell and assuming all the innards are working close to stock form, what would be the next best upgrade? the arm damping system, external psu, tonearm? also, when i get them recabled what kind of rca's would be ideal? don't know how hard it is to install a removable cable, but i'm just thinking about the sound quality. the stock ones look iffy.

I wrote a long piece about tonearm upgrades here http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/tec...grades-366309/

In short there is on the one hand what I'd call the "historical" approach advocated by KABUSA and many Technics traditionalist who use the methods popular in the late '70s and early '80s and go with the Ortofon concorde style cart to lower the mass and improve tracking. Obviously this works on kinds of music which don't require much physical manipulation of the records in DJ'ing terms. This is where the design for the silicon trough upgrade comes from, as it adds extra damping, to keep the slightly massier than desired Technics arm under better control.

On the other hand there is the "modernising" approach, which looks at the Technics more in the context of Hi-Fi record playback technology, and how this has continued to develop since the halcyon days of analogue, and advocates more modern materials etc.

A good example would be a company like Isonoe Audio Isolation Systems which has reponded to the way the decks are actually being used today and added damping by means of building a suspension system into the feet themselves.

Generally though the biggest single development in turntables since the '70s has been in tonearms so that would be the first place to start upgrading in my experience.

I havn't progressed to the motor upgrades yet but I beleive Ssportclay has the KAB PSU upgrade as well as the Origin Live tonearm upgrade so he can shed more light here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strokerace /img/forum/go_quote.gif i just found out my dad's old kenwood ka-7100 is working again, though it needs some cleaning/servicing to get rid of all the weird crackling. plus i don't have any speakers to try, except for some old bose ones, so i've just been running some computer speakers through the headphone plug. i can also try using my jbl eon 15's through the ecler, but i have no room, hehe. with my hd280's i kinda like the ecler's headphone output compared to the kenwood's at the moment. i'm looking into getting some used bookshelf speaks to use with the kenwood and maybe using the ecler as a temporary preamp to the aux input in the kenwood..? not sure if that would even be an improvement over using the phono in the kenwood.

That Kenwood is a total classic. see here

Kenwood KA-7100 on TVK

Kenwood KA-9100 on TVK, Zeljko reviews the 9100

Definitely get it serviced as I'd say the phonostage in there would be pretty nice. It'll sound more lush than the Ecler which is super clean and modern sounding so using a worn out DJ stylus, like you are at the moment no doubt, the Kenwood probaby just sounds a bit nondescript. Get it cleaned and recapped and feed it a signal from a new stylus and I'd say it'll sound lovely.

Don't dismiss Bose so readily either, as back in the '70s they weren't the purveyers of 'lifestyle' trinkets they are today, and made some pretty inovative speakers.
Also vintage JBL studio monitors, back when it was James Lancing as opposed to Harman International, would be great with the Kenwood, in a more bedroom friendly set-up if you can find some.
Eons are solid PA kit but I think they need a much more powerful set of amps to do them justice and they might actually damage the Kenwood or themselves if you underdrive them.

 

[ssportclay]

To get a reference of what a Technics SL-1200MK2 is capable of as a Hi-Fi turntable, you need to first get one properly working. I don't like the tonearm very much but you can make it work fairly well by choosing a cartridge with a compliance that matches the tonearm's mass like one of the recommended Denons. Different headshells are available but unfortunately the Technics headshell is one of the lighter ones available so that lowering the tonearm's mass enough to work really well with high compliance MM cartridges isn't really practical. Choose a cartridge that works. Another issue with the tonearm besides it's mass is it's lack of structural integrity when compared with better modern tonearms. Money would be better spent by installing a different tonearm instead of fixing or upgrading the original tonearm but if you can get it working fairly cheaply, go ahead and use it. I have a KAB power supply and recommend it. This will widen the sound stage and give it greater depth while giving more focused locations to the individual instruments. This will not mean much unless you have good speakers and other gear to take advantage of it.

 

[strokerace]

thanks for all the info guys, it's just what i was looking for.

will report back when i get my equipment fixed up.

by the way, the bose speakers are 101 music monitors.
when i was a younger my dad hooked up the bose speakers and the kenwood ka-7100 to my super nintendo, hehe. they never really had any bass but they sounded pretty clean. might work ok if i had a subwoofer to go with them.

i also found out my dad donated the old non working NAD equipment he had, wish i could've tried to fix them since he says the receiver would've been even better than the kenwood. on the other hand my uncle is letting me go through all his old hifi equipment and might be able to score a decent sony receiver with a phono stage and video if he's still got it.

the jbl eon 15's i mentioned are self powered speakers and take XLR inputs so i'd have to use some converter or connect them directly to the ecler. love the bass on them, but i'm not so sure about how they would be for listening.

 

[memepool]

Cool. Those Bose speakers arn't bad at all for what they are, which is an early sort of ported mini monitor. They work best high up mounted on the wall at ear height and the way to get some bass out of them is to put them in or near a corner or else on an enclosed book shelf close to the wall.

I'd say that Kenwood is going to be better than any NAD reciever, or almost any receiver to be honest. NAD's classic stuff is really from the '80s and is lower powered more budget level like the 3020. They only put high end stuff on that Vintage Knob site as a rule so if it's not sounding that impressive it really just needs a service as it is 30+ years old.

Amplifier technology hasn't really changed so much in the interim, and as the review says, Kenwood were quite ahead of the curve and concentrated on good simple design with short signal paths and high quality componentry, rather than experimental technology like the VFET amps Sony were working on then for example, which are impossible to find spares for today. Of course though '70s Sony is also very good, especially cassette and open reel tape, and they made some pretty nice tuners as well.

So find ideally find a company which specialises in vintage Hi-Fi and spend a few hundred bucks servicing the Kenwood. Someone like Electronics Service labs is what you want, but wrong side of the country for you I know. Maybe they know someone in your neck of the woods. Crackling switches just means it's dirty and needs to be stripped down and properly cleaned. Don't be tempted to spray switch cleaner into it as this will just make it better for a few weeks and then seize up entirely when the gunk hardens again.

JBL Eon's came in both active (powered) and passive flavours. They are very good compact PA speakers which really set new standards when they came out back in the early 1990s. They use titanium domed tweeters which can be a bit in-your-face for casual listening and a 15" woofer needs a room at least 20 feet square to really function properly but you can wire up cables from RCA to XLR / Jack / Speakon or whatever is on there from the tape outs on the Kenwood into them no problem.

 

[strokerace]

so i ended up getting new speakers and a usb DAC first since upgrading my vinyl setup would take a little more time. picked up some RSL 3600 monitors and am very happy with them coming from my kenwood amp. also just bought a nuforce udac which should be here any day now.

next up is repairing my technics 1200, or at least one of them. considering what i have now, would it be best to repair and use the ka-7100's phono inputs or use the tascam xs-8's phono input (then route main rca out to rca input of ka-7100)?. the dial on my amp works best at tuner (middle position), when set to aux or phono sometimes the knob slips(?) and cuts out the left channel causing me to fiddle with the knob or re-insert my cable into my netbook so it may need servicing or at least a cleaning with deoxit. a new phono preamp sometime in the future is not out of the question. my main concern is whether the signal will be degraded significantly or have weird coloration when using the xs-8 as a phono preamp to the ka-7100 vs straight to ka-7100 phono input.

also, if i were to get a low output cart like the denon, would my equipment output sufficient volume? i'm wondering whether to get the jico sas stylus for my shure m44-7 or get a denon cart (they seem to be similar in price...if i have more money i'd like to buy and try both)...

 

[memepool]

The issues with the Kenwood just sound like dirty contacts which is a very common issue. I'd just spend the money on servicing the Kenwood. It's a top vintage amp that really just needs to be properly stripped down and cleaned. Just spraying De-oxit into the controls won't get the gunk out it'll just make it less intrusive in the short term but long term it'll make the job worse.
The Tascam mixer to Kenwood route will work but be noisier than a proper dedicated phono stage as the signal path in the mixer is obviously way more complicated so it will degrade the sound. Whether this is too annoying for you is down to personal preference.
The Denon DL110 or 160 will both work with a conventional MM input like on a DJ mixer and be a skightly better match for the stock Technics arm so I'd only go for the Shure / Jico option if you intend to get an arm without a removable headshell for the Technics in the very near future.

 

[strokerace]

cool, thanks for the info.

i kinda came to the same conclusion with the cart/stylus. jico emailed me back and said there is no SAS stylus for the m44-7 and i can't use the SAS stylus that they make for the m44-7x. after reading about the denon dl110 it sounds like the first one i'd like to try anyway, so no big deal.

i'll report back once everything's repaired...btw my udac came in the mail today but i may return it if i can't detect any difference in my system, maybe put that money towards a preamp or the denon cart, hehe.