Need a low latency wireless headphone
Feb 23, 2017 at 10:10 PM Post #31 of 50

OculusCloud

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Why would you play at 350bmp? Why not just 175bmp. Either way, I've this with Bluetooth earphones and there is definitely a delay. I'd say between 100 - 200ms. I think like all technology it will continue to improve but it's not quite their yet. 40ms of latency is tolerable but definitely on the extreme side.
 
Apr 21, 2017 at 6:57 PM Post #32 of 50

OnkelFeix

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Hi all - pretty old thread but maybe there is finally a proper headphone out which could be called "low latency".
 
Im in the same situation, playing guitar through my tube preamp (from there to my daw running some vst plugins) .
Without disturbing my neighbors Im stuck with using a pair of headphones.  Currently I use a pair of Bose QC15 which I really like, but the wires suck. Same for my instrument cable.
 
Sooner or later I will buy some Line6 Relay G10 (or a used set of the bigger one, have tried a g90 or so some weeks ago, having the sender unit attached to the guitar straps works really well.
 
For the headphones I was searching and searching. Now finally found a pretty decent pair of headphones.  Steelseries Siberia 800 / 840 . 
They advertise 16ms fixed latency, The newer 840 model does come with Bluetooth as additional feature, which might help for mobile use with smartphone etc. 
 
Premium price tag , but maybe fast enough for the purpose of playing music at home without being distracted.
 
Jun 12, 2017 at 11:32 AM Post #33 of 50

Jankey75

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This is my use case as a musician:

I wantto go 100% wireless while playing bass guitar and rehearsing music at home with headphones, rehearsing with my band with headphones and when I play live (no headphones). Latency is the main priority, second priority is sound quality. Still, I like it to sound as good as possible of course. I prefer digital, uncompressed transmission of the audio. If that is not possible to achieve with the low latency, analogue transmission will have to do.

My guess is that round trip from bass-string-to-ear latency must not go above some 15-30ms! Else it will not be possible to synchronize and the brain will get confused...

Wireless Input sources to mixer:
- smartphone with music (only used at home)
- My bass guitar (used at home, with band, and live gigs)

Wireless Output from mixer:
- Headphones (used at home and with band)

I have already ordered relay g10 wireless 6ms latency kit for the bass. I have also already a bluteooth connection from my phone to the mixer. The problem is the headphones. My best guess is the siberia-800 as mentioned above in this thread.

What headphones would you recommend for me as a musician to solve the problem to go all wireless with low latency and OK sound? :)

Links to suggested equipment:

Bass/guitarr to mixer input (Digital, uncompressed audio, latency 6ms)
http://line6.com/relay/g10/

Headphones from mixer output (Digital, latency 16ms)
https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/siberia-800

smartphone to mixer input (bluetooth. Latency is of no importance):
https://www.kjell.com/se/sortiment/...ll-bluetooth-mottagare-med-aptx-3-5-mm-p94775

Ongoing development. Bluetooth low latency transmitter. I am sceptical though...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/...irst-pro-audio-transmitter-audio/x/16815461#/
 
Jun 13, 2017 at 5:12 AM Post #34 of 50

Leeech

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I am on the same quest for lag free instrument monitoring. While I understand there are professional (and somewhat bulky) wireless signal transmission possibilites dedicated to instrument monitoring, I would prefer to find more low key solution.

So far I have gone thru Sennheiser RS 120 RF system, while virtually lag free (2-3 ms?) had too much hiss and tuning problems. To top it off the 2minute idle time signal cutter was not working for me.

I swapped to Sennheiser RS 175 and was somewhat pleased. In some review the suggestion was made to use RS 185 because of the MLC feature (Manual Line Control). This was for two reasons: It projects transient sounds from guitar strings for which ALC -feature (that is inbuilt and cannot be disabled in other RS models) is too slow for. ALC seems to be default feature on many modern wireless headsets. another reason for was that the processing time should be cut a little and thus less lag is introduced.

From line6 forum there is a thread with quotes from two Sennheiser reps. Other stating the latency in the RS series being "Approximately 45ms" and the more convincing one stating "21,5ms" exact. Whether this is measured with MLC on or off i dont know.
(source: http://line6.com/support/topic/27166-wireless-headphone-option-for-practicing/page-2 )

I have then acquired RS 185 too and I am experiencing no lag (or echoing effect) while monitoring guitar. I have not tested the exact amount of latency, but it is nor perceivable to me and does not affect my not-so-professional playing. Still I am always looking for the best solution and have the same priority order as Jankey75; latency comes before sound quality. This is the reason I am tempted to try the Steel Series Siberia wireless that is promising less than 16ms of latency. It would be very interesting to hear direct comparison to RS 185 with MLC turned on. So I am not trusting myself at the moment to be competent to evaluate whether the latency in my present setup is hindering my skills or not.

I am also planning to get G10 for total wireless freedom, so it was nice to know that an extra 6ms latency is expected.

This forum is great source of information. I hope the experiences I have found are useful. My question is: Should I ditch the otherwise great RS 185 for Steel Series Siberia when the primary use is instrument monitoring. All insights are welcomed!
 
Jun 13, 2017 at 11:37 AM Post #35 of 50

Jankey75

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I am on the same quest for lag free instrument monitoring. While I understand there are professional (and somewhat bulky) wireless signal transmission possibilites dedicated to instrument monitoring, I would prefer to find more low key solution.

So far I have gone thru Sennheiser RS 120 RF system, while virtually lag free (2-3 ms?) had too much hiss and tuning problems. To top it off the 2minute idle time signal cutter was not working for me.

I swapped to Sennheiser RS 175 and was somewhat pleased. In some review the suggestion was made to use RS 185 because of the MLC feature (Manual Line Control). This was for two reasons: It projects transient sounds from guitar strings for which ALC -feature (that is inbuilt and cannot be disabled in other RS models) is too slow for. ALC seems to be default feature on many modern wireless headsets. another reason for was that the processing time should be cut a little and thus less lag is introduced.

From line6 forum there is a thread with quotes from two Sennheiser reps. Other stating the latency in the RS series being "Approximately 45ms" and the more convincing one stating "21,5ms" exact. Whether this is measured with MLC on or off i dont know.
(source: http://line6.com/support/topic/27166-wireless-headphone-option-for-practicing/page-2 )

I have then acquired RS 185 too and I am experiencing no lag (or echoing effect) while monitoring guitar. I have not tested the exact amount of latency, but it is nor perceivable to me and does not affect my not-so-professional playing. Still I am always looking for the best solution and have the same priority order as Jankey75; latency comes before sound quality. This is the reason I am tempted to try the Steel Series Siberia wireless that is promising less than 16ms of latency. It would be very interesting to hear direct comparison to RS 185 with MLC turned on. So I am not trusting myself at the moment to be competent to evaluate whether the latency in my present setup is hindering my skills or not.

I am also planning to get G10 for total wireless freedom, so it was nice to know that an extra 6ms latency is expected.

This forum is great source of information. I hope the experiences I have found are useful. My question is: Should I ditch the otherwise great RS 185 for Steel Series Siberia when the primary use is instrument monitoring. All insights are welcomed!

Interesting reading! Thanks!
I am about to go to the post office and pick up the line6 relay g10 and siberia 800 headphones and will hook it up hopefully tonight and test it out. Will get back with some feedback soon!
 
Jun 14, 2017 at 5:01 PM Post #36 of 50

Jankey75

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I have now tested the siberia-800 steelseries + line6 relay g10 for the purpose of playing musical instrument 100% wireless, without buying professional equipment.

Result: Fantastic!

The line6 relay g10 is nothing to say about. All through out professional. No latency you could ever hear. No hearable sound loss. Really good assembling etc. battery charging and everything is super simple! Go get one already!!

Steelseries-800 introduces a noticeable delay, but it is so short that it more sounds like a reverb cause you hear the strings directly when you play and in the earhphones some 20ms later (6+14ms delay). The delay is so short so it has no negative effect while actually playing. If you hammer on a 160bmp song at 1/16th notes, the delay would be like a1/4 of each 1/16th note, so no worries at all! I can play my melodic metal without any problems, and all my focus is to be super tight with the drummer..

The steelseries headset has not once cut the sound or given any distortion when walking around in my 3 room apartment. The sound quality is great. Or, what should I say. Audio nerds would probably say it is not that good compared to a state of the art headphone, but this is super good I think! The line6 relay cuts sometimes if I get to far away, but it does it in a good manner. Never any strange noise, it just goes silent for a fraction of a second. Always continues. Would say that is not a problem in real life cause on a stage you hopefully place the base station where you hang around the most.

Note: I tryied a AKG bluetooth headset with 80ms delay and it is impossible to play with. Way way to much delay... Dont even try.

The smart phone transmitting the music is the biggest problem regarding range, probably because bluetooth yields in the frequency hopping when there is competition in the air. Guess the steelseries and the line6 just goes full burst without any concern about competing equipment (Guess they must transmit each packet at multiple frequencies at the same time, cause re-transmit must be out of the question to keep latency down?! anyhow..)

Bass/guitarr to mixer input (Digital, uncompressed audio, latency 6ms)
http://line6.com/relay/g10/

Headphones from mixer output (Digital, latency 16ms)
https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/siberia-800

smartphone to mixer input (bluetooth. Latency is of no importance):
https://www.kjell.com/se/sortiment/...ll-bluetooth-mottagare-med-aptx-3-5-mm-p94775
 
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Jun 15, 2017 at 7:07 AM Post #37 of 50

Leeech

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Thanks Jankey for reporting your findings! I will order the G10 too. Quick googling found good reference price from thomann.de .

I dont know if the additional 6ms will affect the total latency of my setup too much. If so I will get the Siberia 800 (or 840 having the same latency and bluetooth on the side option for other use) and leave the laggier RS 185 for other use.
 
Jul 17, 2017 at 2:35 AM Post #38 of 50

Jankey75

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Some notes about latency:

Sound speed: 340 m/s = 0,34 m/ms (it takes 1 ms for the sound to travel 0,34 meters in air)
20 ms latency corresponds to: 0,34 * 22 = 7,48 meters, ~7,5 meters

Conclusion: using the set up above with total 22ms latency yields a latency equivalent to playing with classic gear, but backing away 7,5 meters from your amp. Anyone could play like that. Case closed.
 
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Jul 17, 2017 at 4:48 AM Post #39 of 50

domsch1988

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Some notes about latency:

Sound speed: 340 m/s = 0,34 m/ms (it takes 1 ms for the sound to travel 0,34 meters in air)
20 ms latency corresponds to: 0,34 * 22 = 7,48 meters, ~7,5 meters

Conclusion: using the set up above with total 22ms latency yields a latency equivalent to playing with classic gear, but backing away 7,5 meters from your amp. Anyone could play like that. Case closed.
It's not that easy. While anyone COULD play with 22ms of delay, it's far from optimal. And yes, this is also true with an amp in the room (although because of reflections and such your calculations are really simplified). You can get used to the delay (playing Rocksmith 2014 i got used to around 40ms of delay). But you will never be able to play really tight at faster tempos.

For example:
Take a song at 180 BPM (fast, but not insane). Playing 8th notes you are looking at 360 notes per minute (not even talking those sweet 16th note sweeps or hard to time 8th note Tripletts).
So, you have 6 notes per second. So, one Note every 166ms. So, 40ms Delay throws you off by a 32nd note. That is considerable! And there are many styles of music the play even faster. being off by a 32nd to a 16th note depending on tempo is unacceptable for precise playing.
And that's getting only worse for singers. They hear their own voice "in their head" plus the monitors. Anything beyond 5ms is really of putting there.

That said, in live situations that's what you have to deal with.
At home, in a recording setup i never go above 10ms round trip latency. Everything above that can be heard in impressions in the recording. And yes, this automatically means no wireless solution and a decent interface.
In OP's case (though old), get a longer headphone cable. If it gets in your way, get a 5m extension and some mic clips to fix it to your shirt or such.
For live: There are in-ear solutions that work wireless. But they are expensive for a decent product. Nothing you'd want to get for a "Dorm Setup". The Sure ULX-D for example has a latency of 2.9ms (NOT Roundtrip). But thats 700$+ for the Receiver alone.

So, yes, there are wireless system for headphones that have a reasonable latency. None of the are affordable or meant for usage at home. And most important they are not meant for audiophile quality. To reach those latencys the sound is heavily compressed. The DAC's and Amps in the body packs are decent, but any dedicated amp (even portable) will sound much better.
 
Jul 18, 2017 at 5:47 AM Post #40 of 50

Jankey75

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Cant argue agains that. What you say makes sense. I still mean, though, that the experience as such with wireless for that price for home usage is superb. Just put on the headphones, grab the instrument and play. Yes, there is a latency, but it does not affect my playing. I give thumbs up for home usage!

There is one more thing to add: When you play with regular speakers, all analogue, there is also the problem with echoing in the room, creating an unwanted reverb. One reflection in a "normal" room will create an echo in the lower frequencys that is quite strong. This means if I now play with speakers i tend to feel that also introduces a problem as I got used to using headphones with 0 echo. And.. If I get to choose from 0 latency but with the room echo, or 22 ms latency with 0 echo.. Damn, I choose 0 echo and 22ms delay, haha :) So it is very complex, there are many factors, so.. No easy answers that will fit everyone..

my thoughts about analogue transmission:
Analogue radio transmission it is just as quick as transmitting trough a cable, ~0 latency. The problem is the frequencies that must be allocated one per transmitter, and that yields licensed bands that will drive the cost. Also analogue electronics is more expensive if you want hifi sound. So I kind of ruled that out to fit my wallet.
 
Jul 18, 2017 at 6:30 AM Post #41 of 50

domsch1988

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Cant argue agains that. What you say makes sense. I still mean, though, that the experience as such with wireless for that price for home usage is superb. Just put on the headphones, grab the instrument and play. Yes, there is a latency, but it does not affect my playing. I give thumbs up for home usage!

There is one more thing to add: When you play with regular speakers, all analogue, there is also the problem with echoing in the room, creating an unwanted reverb. One reflection in a "normal" room will create an echo in the lower frequencys that is quite strong. This means if I now play with speakers i tend to feel that also introduces a problem as I got used to using headphones with 0 echo. And.. If I get to choose from 0 latency but with the room echo, or 22 ms latency with 0 echo.. Damn, I choose 0 echo and 22ms delay, haha :) So it is very complex, there are many factors, so.. No easy answers that will fit everyone..

my thoughts about analogue transmission:
Analogue radio transmission it is just as quick as transmitting trough a cable, ~0 latency. The problem is the frequencies that must be allocated one per transmitter, and that yields licensed bands that will drive the cost. Also analogue electronics is more expensive if you want hifi sound. So I kind of ruled that out to fit my wallet.
So much stuff... Ok:
It all depends on your gear. If you play through speakers (Monitors that is, not 4x12), you should also treat your room to deal with modes in the lower spectrum. That's why i use headphones. I live in a flat and can't properly treat my room.
For the "Room Reverb" it depends. On my trusty HD500x i leave it mostly dry (or add a tiny amount of reverb through a "Pedal"). On my main Rig (kemper) i have the option to have emulated room for the Headphone out. But i personally hate any reverb that's not for "tone". And this is for natural reverb in the room too. That's why any studio is treated to eliminate nearly all reverb.
But than again, i do play a VHT Pitbull, so i like my sound as tight as it gets.

And no, Analogue Radio is not 0ms latency. Even Cable isn't for that matter. But yes, with Analogue wireless you get pretty close to the cable feeling. And yes, it's costly and not needed for home use really.

In the end, if you do have wireless Headphones that work for you, great. I just find my timing and playing to be reeealy sensitive to almost any delay, so wireless is out for me personally. Nothing wrong if it works for you though.
 
Jul 21, 2017 at 3:00 PM Post #44 of 50

pi-electronics

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I know, wireless headphones suck. But I really need a pair because I am staying in a dorm and want to play my electric guitar. I have a few decent cans but the big issue is the wire. It gets in the way of the guitar, gets tangled up with the guitar cord, etc. It's fustrating as heck so I would really like to find a wireless solution. The problem is also latency.. I can't have a 0.5 second delay because it would throw off my playing. Any suggestions? Is wireless technology "there" yet? Or am I hoping for the impossible?
I would recommend pi duet because it have both wired one and wireless one. Both have the perfect sound quality and I really enjoy it. You can have a try.
 
Jan 19, 2018 at 1:39 AM Post #45 of 50

toussman

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Youtube clip where above equipment is used, line6 relay g10 and steelseries siberia 800:
Hey Jankey75,
Based on your previous posts, I bought the Arctis 7 Headset from SteelSeries.

I play electronic drums (Roland td-11kv) at home and have been using wired headset until now.
I am tired of breaking headsets due to pulling on the cable and also after testing out a BT headset I immediately noticed how nice it was to go wireless, yet the latency made it unsuitable.

I have actually emailed SteelSeries to inquire about the latency of their product line and their answer was:

"
I do not have specific measurements of the latency for our headset, but between the Arctis 7 and Siberia 800, I know that the latency is less on the Arctis 7 due to the newer technology being use. Is it a difference that the human ear can necessarily detect easily, probably not, but it is still less in the Arctis 7.

Those two headset would be your best options for wireless that we currently sell though.

Hope this helps. :)

Regards,

Ryan S
SteelSeries Support
"

The headset will arrive soon and I will be testing them and report back.
 

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