My Thorens meets my Nakamichi -- Under the bed
Jan 26, 2008 at 2:46 AM Post #31 of 52

Sovkiller

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
my all time favorite is when someone tells me there is no wear on a properly set up rig if this were true a stylus would never need replacing
and unless i am wrong the grooves would have to lose some high frequency info after repeated playings.



Well the stylus could last for a very long time if they are not abused, most of the times while you replace the stylus is not because of the wear, it is just becasue you made an stupid maneuver most of the times while cleaning it, and blow it off. I have seen stylus with more than 10 years of use, and still in good shape, they are made of really hard materials, but I agree about the grooves, they deteriorate easily with the use...the more you play them, the less they will last....
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 4:43 AM Post #32 of 52

derekbmn

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is no $2.00 decent LP, that is IMO a plain lie, unless a junk LP from a Salvation Army, a very good condition LP will sell for almost as a good used CD, you can find nowdays cheaper CDs than LPs due to availabllity...


Sorry, but I have many LPs that have been bought for less than a buck that are VERY VERY decent. And after just one run on my Nitty Gritty are VERY noise free. It's no lie ....sorry.
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 6:05 AM Post #33 of 52

Sovkiller

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Quote:

Originally Posted by derekbmn /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry, but I have many LPs that have been bought for less than a buck that are VERY VERY decent. And after just one run on my Nitty Gritty are VERY noise free. It's no lie ....sorry.


You are very lucky then, congrats!!!! Just curious how long ago did you get them? And of course all depends on what kind of music you are looking for? For the music I like, sorry but that is not true at all...But anyway mainly all what I like is on CD, so no worries neither...

I bet you that you cna get the same CD for 50 cents then...
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 9:13 AM Post #34 of 52

Uncle Erik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is no $2.00 decent LP, that is IMO a plain lie, unless a junk LP from a Salvation Army, a very good condition LP will sell for almost as a good used CD, you can find nowdays cheaper CDs than LPs due to availabllity...


I find quite a few LPs between $0.25 and $5.00 that are almost entirely free of damage and sound great after a quick trip through the sink - I like to hand-wash. Not just a fluke, either. I've picked up a few hundred this way and have saved a ton of money over buying even used CDs.

It isn't just me, either. My vinyl-obsessed cousin has roughly 6,000 records. I'd say 5,000 of those are used, yet almost all of them sound terrific.

Quote:

You are very lucky then, congrats!!!! Just curious how long ago did you get them? And of course all depends on what kind of music you are looking for? For the music I like, sorry but that is not true at all...But anyway mainly all what I like is on CD, so no worries neither...

I bet you that you cna get the same CD for 50 cents then...


_________________

Sorry you've had such bad luck, but it's mostly about examining them before you buy. Sure, there are plenty of damaged ones, but I don't buy those. This gets me more music than I can listen to. Still going through the 11 I got last weekend for $4.75. It's not the same as ordering the disc you want, but I found some nice jazz, classical and country I like. A quarter a pop takes the risk out of trying new music.

None of the ones I bought last weekend are available on CD, so I have no idea what they'd cost as a used CD. But $0.25, 5 minutes in the sink and a new sleeve is a pretty good deal in my book.
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 9:23 AM Post #35 of 52

jsaliga

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Quote:

Originally Posted by derekbmn /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sorry, but I have many LPs that have been bought for less than a buck that are VERY VERY decent. And after just one run on my Nitty Gritty are VERY noise free. It's no lie ....sorry.


I haven't had anything close to the good fortunes you have had, particularly where classical music is concerned. I have a VPI 16.5 and a lot of the bargain basement classical records I have bought cannot be salvaged by a mere cleaning or two. If I buy 50 classical records, at least half are worthless junk that I have to throw out. They sound bad not because they are dirty, but because they are simply worn out and shot. Of the remaining 25, if I am lucky then 10 of them will play grade to NM and the rest to VG+ (the lowest acceptable grade for vinyl as far as I am concerned). Perhaps I am not working with the right little old ladies who only listened to their classical vinyl on Sundays.
wink.gif


I am paying anywhere between $5 to $8 for most of my NM vinyl. And I think that's a bargain. I would rather pay that sort of money for a record that I will be happy listening to than $12 for a CD with hot mastering or $2 for a worn out record that I have to throw in the trash.

This may be a little unfair, but of those who complain incessantly about vinyl I wonder how many were using lousy turntables/cartridges and a collection of beat up records to form their opinions? Or are some just hyper-sensitive to the slight surface noise that one can hear between tracks? I won't argue the point about occasional problems with even new pressings. I bought a 200g Classic Records pressing of Led Zeppelin I and was pretty disappointed by three or four loud pops on side 1. It was not static, and it was not something that could be cleaned out of the record. It was a bad pressing and I got a replacement. I've actually had very good experiences with getting dealers to replace new vinyl records that have quality defects on the rare occasion when it happens. And I have even done very well with a couple of trusted used record dealers who will refund the price of records I buy if I report problems to them.

But tell me, what do you do when you buy a CD with hot mastering? Getting a replacement won't help. The next copy is going to be just as cooked as the last. So what then? Do you need to go to school to find a release of that title on CD that is properly mastered? I think classical music fares much better in that regard and I have many classical SACDs and CD titles that sound spectacular. But I have a lot of jazz, rock, and blues CDs that are absolutely terrible and their vinyl counterparts are audibly superior.

--Jerome
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 2:12 PM Post #36 of 52

Sovkiller

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I find quite a few LPs between $0.25 and $5.00 that are almost entirely free of damage and sound great after a quick trip through the sink - I like to hand-wash. Not just a fluke, either. I've picked up a few hundred this way and have saved a ton of money over buying even used CDs.

It isn't just me, either. My vinyl-obsessed cousin has roughly 6,000 records. I'd say 5,000 of those are used, yet almost all of them sound terrific.


_________________

Sorry you've had such bad luck, but it's mostly about examining them before you buy. Sure, there are plenty of damaged ones, but I don't buy those. This gets me more music than I can listen to. Still going through the 11 I got last weekend for $4.75. It's not the same as ordering the disc you want, but I found some nice jazz, classical and country I like. A quarter a pop takes the risk out of trying new music.

None of the ones I bought last weekend are available on CD, so I have no idea what they'd cost as a used CD. But $0.25, 5 minutes in the sink and a new sleeve is a pretty good deal in my book.



You make me feel jealous, and you are very lucky indeed...the music I like is not that cheap, not even in used LPs...Maybe is a matter of preference in the kind of music...

But I do not feel remose at all, in that last even that I could even find them for cheap, LPs were crossed out of my book years ago...

I have a friend that has around 30 crates of LP's, a really obsessed LP collector, and you know what, the 30 crates are right now on top of a pallet in the basement on his house, he began to use CDs long time ago, after finding the real benefits of them...IIRC also Dr. Gilmore has a nice multithousand Thorens in the basement of his house as well...
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 2:29 PM Post #37 of 52

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
my all time favorite is when someone tells me there is no wear on a properly set up rig if this were true a stylus would never need replacing
and unless i am wrong the grooves would have to lose some high frequency info after repeated playings.



Not all vinyl rigs or stylii are created equal is your simple answer. I've seen 12" records loose some of their high frequency with hundreds of repeated plays on a DJ set up tracking at 3-5gms with a coin on top.
But the difference between this kind of treatment and just playing a carefully maintained LP a few times every so often with a high end Moving Coil tracking at 2gms is huge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang
If there wasn't another easier to use medium (or several) that sound just as good, or if it was the only show in town like it used to be, sure, I'd be using records. But for once and all, vinyl is dead in my house - my Thorens TD-125 just slipped under my bed along with my Nak. Now that Nakamichi sounded GOOD. The Nak makes mirror copies of cds...amazing...but why the hell should I make copies of cds? I can't play 'em my car. And any woman old enough to accept a personally made get-to-know-me tape, I wouldn't want to date


You hit the nail on the head there. You're right vinyl is a pain and so is tape and digital playback is so convenient. I spend 4-5 hrs a week listening to my Ipod and maybe get to spin a few records on the weekend when I'm relaxing.

What would you want a Nakamichi for in this day and age? Well I took out my old Sony Walkman DD-30 for a spin over christmas to listen to some old tapes and wow...the difference is it's involving, you're in the music whereas the ipod just sounds flat, synthetic and detached by comparision.

My Ipod is no slouch either feeding a portacorda and Sony D-77s but the DD walkman smoked it in so many ways it's unreal and it didn't need an amp either, because Sony had thoughtfully built one in
cool.gif


Am I going to spend all my spare time making tape compiliations to listen to like when I was 16, maybe not but every once in a while it's good to be inspired by music again, which is why I suspect it's still under your bed.
biggrin.gif
 
Jan 26, 2008 at 5:35 PM Post #38 of 52

servoled

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is no $2.00 decent LP, that is IMO a plain lie, unless a junk LP from a Salvation Army, a very good condition LP will sell for almost as a good used CD, you can find nowdays cheaper CDs than LPs due to availabllity...

Music on LP that is not relesed in CD exist (and the other way around as well) of course, but is the less, and trust me that to find one of those LPs in good condition is not easy neither.



Granted you won't find much on ebay in the way of decent LPs in the $1-$2 range, but you can find some great stuff at thrift shops and garage sales. Its not nearly as convenient as ebay and its completely luck of the draw, but well worth it imho.

As far as music on LP that is not released on CD it is largely a matter of what type of music you listen to. I tend to listen to lots of garage/punk/psych stuff where a vast majority of the bands regularly release 7" singles. As a random example, Thomas Function so far has released 4 7"s over the last couple years, none of which is currently available on CD. A vast majority of Nick Lowe's catalog was briefly re-released on CD, but those have been long out of print, so even the $10 used LP on ebay is a good deal cheaper than the $30+ you'll spend on the CD.

Vinyl is not the holy grail of audio nirvana and never will be. But I'm willing to put up with a little surface noise (which on a well cleaned record I don't even notice other than the brief period between tracks) to enjoy music I wouldn't have a chance to otherwise.
 
Jan 27, 2008 at 7:29 PM Post #39 of 52

Uncle Erik

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Sovkiller, if you make it over to the Left Coast, I'll let you in on my secret hunting grounds! Mostly places that sell junk, second hand and estate goods. The estate places are best and you can sometimes find wrapped, unopened discs for $0.25-$1.00. You do have to look through a lot of discs to get the good ones, but they are there. I'll cull the initial pile for what interests me, then look them over for damage. Unlike some collectors, I don't reject for sleeve flaws. If the music is good, I'll buy it.

Also pick some up from Ameoba and Record Surplus in LA. I especially love Record Surplus - it's more or less down the street from work and they're open to 9. Most discs are $3-$8 and they're pretty good at sorting out bad discs.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 12:29 AM Post #40 of 52

Spareribs

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I have a Thorens 125 MK II from 1972 which I bought from ebay last year and it sounds way better than my Bel Canto DAC 2 and I think the Bel Canto is a worthy source. I find that vinyl easily beats CD in most cases. Of course, sometimes the noise is annoying at times but a clean record will easily dominate the sound of CD in my set up in most cases.

I still listen to CDs though.
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 12:40 AM Post #41 of 52

bigshot

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif
They sound bad not because they are dirty, but because they are simply worn out and shot.


The trick is to know which are the good pressings. If you buy 80s classical from book clubs or subscription services, they sounded awful even when they were new. But many earlier pressings sound great. If you're paying a buck apiece, you can afford to throw a few out. But I find that classical records in particular are almost always in great shape. Maybe no one in LA played their classical records. Who knows?

See ya
Steve
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 12:42 AM Post #42 of 52

bigshot

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Also pick some up from Ameoba and Record Surplus in LA. I especially love Record Surplus


Psssst! PCC Swap Meet! But don't tell anyone else!

See ya
Steve
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 4:57 AM Post #43 of 52

nikongod

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to the OP:
i would work on setup. the components of the system sound like they should go well, and make sweet music.

if you dont have one borrow (or buy) a nice protractor for your arm, and a GOOD scale. if the system is not lined up properly, any further effort is hopeless.

if you want to hear how BAD an expensive TT system can sound i invite you to step back to while i was learning how to set up my TT. it was BAD. as i got better at the setup i acknowledged the fact that if it took an hour to mount and align the cartridge thats what it took. if i need to recheck the azimuth after adjusting tracking force, so be it... the last time i reset everything it took about an hour from taking the new cart out of the box to spinning a record. its been dialed in for a couple weeks now on this iteration with no troubles.

i have found that each time i realign my TT from scratch again it sounds better. i think its jsut getting used to stuff. when i was changing between a couple carts frequently the difference from one assembly to the next was not subtle.

you can make a turntable/arm/cart in ANY price bracket sound like a $45 bestbuy special if its not set up well. its sad to see so much money wasted for want of some time to set it up properly.

as far as skipping on a record, that just sucks. see below for how i deal with skipping CD's.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm with you guys, simply I can't stand the noise and all LPs (even just open new) will deliver it...I grew up listening and selling LPs, and trust me that there is no such a silent LP, none, cero, nada, all LPs have surface noise at least which inherent ot hte media, and all of them a pop and scratch once in a while, even while new...


aah, yes, the occasional pop and tick VS the repetitive machine-gun a scratched CD sets off in your ear. while i do have quite a collection of records with a pop/tick. my collection of CD's that started to repeat 1second sections has been sent to a landfill on a garbage truck.

the odd pop and click on a record is not pleasant, but not unlistenable. a damaged CD is toast. while it takes more effort to make a CD scratch to unplayability it is totally hopeless when it goes.

curiously, my Beatles white album has a LARGE visible scratch on one of the sides, and plays very quietly. some of my other records have barely visible scratches that pop and click all over the place.
Quote:

There is no $2.00 decent LP, that is IMO a plain lie, unless a junk LP from a Salvation Army, a very good condition LP will sell for almost as a good used CD, you can find nowdays cheaper CDs than LPs due to availabllity...


if you are buying 1 at a time, or picking and choosing yes it can get expensive.

its a good thing in a sad way that old audiophiles pass on and their heirs dont care for the 1200 records they have on the shelf... buy a collection on craigslist @ $0.10-0.20 each. its disturbing how nice some of my $0.10 records are.
Quote:

Music on LP that is not relesed in CD exist (and the other way around as well) of course, but is the less, and trust me that to find one of those LPs in good condition is not easy neither.


i do agree. it is rough search if your searching for a specific album pressed on a specific day by a specific press operator when an angel was present in the factory after lunch but before the press operator had his third shot of whiskey... things can get tough.

of course, the same is true in the opposite way for CD's. if the one version that they mixed down is no good, it will never be good. the examples most often used for the "anti-loudness wars" are solid. even if you dont care for the music, it is easy to agree that they would improve GREATLY if they were remastered. 5 and 10 years later they are still pumping out the same crap as on that first disc. if they are still selling those albums 10 years from now, it could easily be the same CD.

eventually because the pressing dies wear the record must be remastered. bummer for the record MFR, but bonus to the consumer if they do a better job of it the second time around. a different version of the same thing. we have all gone to multiple performances of our favorite music to hear them different ways...
Quote:

Of all the analog media existent, IMO, people had chosen one of the less apropriate to stick to the analog world...I ahve a firend that still has a lot of reel to reel tapes, oh man that sounds so sweet...!!!
wink.gif
wink.gif
wink.gif


i wish i had room for a R2R player. R2R tapes are ABSURDLY expensive though. even blanks to make copies on are mildly absurd.

in defense of vinyl, it is more tolerant of poor storage conditions. going back to my craigslist records, a few crates were obviously stored in a garage for a few years, and the majority of the records play quite well after a quick washing. tape would never withstand the garage/basement/attic abuse. i am afraid of what i would have to pay for some of those records if i were to go and buy them one at a time
wink.gif
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 10:36 AM Post #44 of 52

memepool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The trick is to know which are the good pressings. If you buy 80s classical from book clubs or subscription services, they sounded awful even when they were new.


Not all '70s and '80s pressings are bad though, there was still a lot of work going into improving vinyl playback well into the '80s so there were plenty of good pressings especially of classical music via DMM for instance.
Since the '90s pressing quality has been getting better and better and is now easily on a par with anything from the '50s and '60s. You may not like the DSD Rolling Stones repressings form the point of view of how they have been remastered but the pressings themselves are excellent.


Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang
I tried and tried to make vinyl sound good, but as I don't have unlimited funds to throw at it (although I did throw about a grand at trying).


As a matter of interest what upgrades did you perform on your Thorens that cost 1000 dollars? Did you change the tonearm for instance? because if you are still using the old stock Thorens one then you are really not hearing what this deck is capable of by a long shot. My TD 125 II/Origin Live OL1/DynavectorDV20 set up easily outperforms any of my CD players and I have some pretty good ones ( Studer, Marantz, Arcam etc)...
 
Jan 28, 2008 at 2:35 PM Post #45 of 52

hciman77

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nikongod /img/forum/go_quote.gif
aah, yes, the occasional pop and tick VS the repetitive machine-gun a scratched CD sets off in your ear. while i do have quite a collection of records with a pop/tick. my collection of CD's that started to repeat 1second sections has been sent to a landfill on a garbage truck.


From my 700 CDs going back to 1984 I have only had 3 fail badly, these were due to dropping onto a gritty wooden floor and being kicked, even the worst of these on my CD player with the most modest error correction play to about 95% capability.

Of the others 690 play flawlessly including my very first 10 CDs, and a few play with perhaps one blip per CD.

I used to borrow CDs from the local library to try out new music, of these probably 25% - 40% were really very very hard to listen to, but when you looked at the surface of thes discs they had damage that was incredible to behold, damage that if you saw on an LP you wouldnt even attempt to put it on.

But it isnt really about click and pops it is the constant background noise that killed LP for me, and this is just a fact of life with vinyl and a matter of physics so that even the best TT cannot escape it. When the music level drops low then the background noise becomes very obvious. With a CD that noise level is much much lower, normally inaudible.

[/QUOTE]
 

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