My short comparison: SA6 vs. (modded) KSC75 (and short talk about the 5 Pro and ER4P/S)

Apr 25, 2008 at 9:06 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 14

TheMarchingMule

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Posts
9,158
Likes
23
Location
SoCal
Hey guys, I havn't done something like this in awhile, if ever, but I felt like I need to do this comparison, not for kicks and giggles, but mainly because I've been so frustrated with my apparent bad luck with being able to settle down with any kind of IEM, probably because of my pickiness to both fun and detail. So first and foremost I will state that your mileage may (and I guarantee will) vary from mine, so please do keep that in mind as you continue reading.

I have been involved with instruments since I was four years old or so, from piano to clarinet to finally (tenor) saxaphone, and I listen to drums and flutes and pretty much every major insturment you can think of almost daily. So I do have particularly experienced ears with how things should sound. I just wanted to state that ahead of time because I feel that this is a major qualification when critically reviewing anything audio-related.

(Also please disregard any spelling errors; this school computer only uses Internet Explorer, so no built-in spellcheck like Firefox has)

The UE super.fi 5 Pro was my first IEM, and I'm sure many of you have read my dissapointment with it. In a nutshell, the bass was bloated and undefined, the mids were so recessed to a point where the vocals and the great majority of instruments sounded as if they were playing behind a stage curtain and were de-tuned.

My second IEM was the ER4P/S. Yes, it was sharp as everybody says it is, but it lacked something vital: to me, that was a breath of life. It sounded just like the recording, not like something real. I wanted to take a break from all of this IEM stuff, so I sold it.

A few months later, long story short, I bought the Sleek Audio SA6 from SoundEarphones.com. It was halfway on a whim, and with the coupon that let me get $25 off of the retail price, I figured I didn't have much to lose.

After trying out all of the combinations of ports, tips, and plugs, I am ready to state what I truly feel about the SA6, and how I think it compares sonically to the Koss KSC75; nothing more, nothing less; just how the two compare in their presentation of music.

By the way, the KSC75 model I am using is modded in the sense that I manually drilled strategically-placed holes through its plastic cover; the black grill that is between the foam ear pad and the driver. The mod is called the "Kramer" mod, dicovered by Head-Fi member kramer5150, and I know the thread is still around somewhere if you are interested in doing it yourself.

I wrote all this during English class with the needed equipment, so do understand that instead of doing the whole "Treble, Bass, Mids" thing, I have written things as they came to my mind, and after I locked onto it for awhile, I wrote down what I heard and felt.

So without further ado, I'm going to break from storytime and go into review mode.
wink.gif

===
Source: Sansa Clip
Music file quality: LAME VBR V2
Music: Nirvana - Nevermind [MFSL UDCD 666]
Paul McCartney & Wings - Band on the Run [DCC GZS-1030]
Alison Krauss - Stay

Nevermind [KSC75]: Smells Like Teen Spirit -
  1. Not overly bright
  2. Plenty of well-rounded (but definately not defined) bass
  3. Vocals center and simply "there;" neither too forward or recessed
  4. Guitars have energy to them; raw and crunching
  5. Drums have reliable and believable; a bit mellow on the hits though
  6. Cymblas have noticeable warbling and wavering, sounds like artifacting, but even with the original CD it is like that, so I'll blame it on the original mastering
  7. When multiple tom toms are involved, bass does become quite thunderous, and the defintions of it slips down a notch or two, but it's nothing so drastic as to make your face look like it just had a lemon
Nevermind [SA6]: Smells Like Teen Spirit -

Immediate first impressions (and still lingered around the whole time) was that the SA6 is too polite with the sound to the point where to me it feels less involving than if I still had my old Sennheiser HD 580 around. When I found the right tips for me (small tips), vocals jumped from muffled and distant (medium tips) to up front and there, but not clear; it sounded unnatural, as if there was a thin piece of cloth or two over the microphone. Some may call this "warm." but I would called this "veiled."

Guitars are wailing away as normal, but again for some reason it never sounds alive, breathing, whatever you want to call it. Even with the Treble ++ tips, it's boring to my ears. Some said the ++ tips are too harsh for them, but to me they didn't even sound as harsh as Sennheisers.

Perhaps the biggest pet peeve I have is when the percussion sounds dead in the water: where the snares start resembling tom toms in their hollow "thump thump" nature. Even the cymbals when they crashed, sizzled, and smashed, sounded unfillfed; it was a strange feeling: I knew it was there, I have heard the music make my head go crazy (in a good way), but right now I just couldn't feel it.

[Band on the Run showed the same observations, and with Alison Krauss, the acoustic guitars were so tangible with their sound, but it was like an invisible thin glass wall was between it and my ears; I could hear it oh so well, and I could see it, but I couldn't hear that needed perk of it, and I couldn't reach out and "touch" the intimate sound. Also, Ms. Krauss' voice sounded muffled and mixed in with the instruments, weaving in and out of them; first time I heard it that way, and it just didn't feel natural to me.]
===
As I close this review, I am sure all who read this will be wanting to vry out, "He's basically bashing the SA6, pointing out only the flaw!' And I honestly do not blame those who wish to do so, because I will admit what spurred me on to write this review was my great dissapointment as soon as I chose the first song to play through these (Nevermind, Nirvana). To me, the SA6 just doesn't work out for my ears, and until now I have never heard an IEM (or any 'phone for this matter) that I can say replicates the sound in such an uninvolving way. It is not a fatiguing effect on either side of the sound spectrum (i.e too much bass, or too much treble), but rather a ho-hum thought and feeling to me as I sat there trying to get into the music.

I used to own the ER4P/S for a few months, and used them exclusively, and if my final word on it was that its sound was as sterile as a hospital examination room, then I would say the SA6 is the hospital waiting room. I am referring to the feeling when you are in either one (and presumably not there to re-attach a limb or get a shot, just to be there for a normal check-up), and at least in the examination room you can have a thrill touching and examining all the strange contraptions in the room when the staff isn't looking, but in the waiting room, you know you really can do nothing but sit and wait for your turn, and I know I would always be waiting for my turn when I listen to music through the SA6.
 
Apr 25, 2008 at 9:42 PM Post #2 of 14
Appreciate your observations. I just took the same Pepsi challenge with Smells Like Teen Spirit between the Ksc75s (Kramer modded) and the SA6s, and to my mind, no comparison, I favor the SA6s. No surprise there, I guess.

Since this is post-freezing-shot-of-vodka (to celebrate the new two-year lease on the condo we invested in) writing, it may not make much sense. But I found the Ksc75s rough, not as refined, as expected. Don't get me wrong, they are a $20 miracle.

But I was more engaged with by the SA6 sound sig, which sounds much more defined and balanced (I can't see using the word veil with the Sleeks) without defiling the Nirvana sound. Of course, you are college student and I am 56, so therein may lie the rub.

Either way, your search for the right IEM continues, mine is on hold ... for now. That's why this stuff is so much fun. Oh, I also owned the Ety ER4P at one point, and chucked them for the Atrio M5s (not sure where they rank in the hospital analogy). So I too have had a long, confusing (re buying and selling) IEM search.
 
Apr 25, 2008 at 10:53 PM Post #3 of 14
Sad story. High expectations and than all this disappointment.
I guess that is bound to happen sometimes.
frown.gif

I like mine really well, for portable use that is. They are not the be-all end-all in headphonedom, but from my Cowon D2 they do very well when I'm working in the bus or the train. I also like my ER-4P from the Trekstor Vibez by the way, but you don't want to swap DAP....

I hope you'll some day find a pair of IEMs that suit you better.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Apr 26, 2008 at 2:56 AM Post #4 of 14
The feeling I have from reading your thread isn't that much about bashing SA6. To be honest to you, I think you are not disappointed by either SA6 or SF5, but the general sound of IEM, as you are expecting them to sounds more like big cans. KSC75 is a pair of very lively 'phone, but to my ear the music reproduction isn't really that accurate (in a good way which is why it is fun sounding).

I once said maybe SA6 isn't your cup of tea, I think I was wrong. Now I think maybe IEM in general isn't your cup of tea. If my assumption is true, than it is very unlikely you will find the perfect sounding in the IEM world. Of course, this is just my own opinion.
 
Apr 26, 2008 at 3:40 AM Post #5 of 14
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMarchingMule /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have been involved with instruments since I was four years old or so, from piano to clarinet to finally (tenor) saxaphone, and I listen to drums and flutes and pretty much every major insturment you can think of almost daily. So I do have particularly experienced ears with how things should sound. I just wanted to state that ahead of time because I feel that this is a major qualification when critically reviewing anything audio-related.


I play mainly alto and soprano sax, but also play the flute, clarinet, trumpet, piano, guitar, bass guitar and others. I know people like me are out there somewhere I'm glad that I "met" you.
biggrin.gif


You mentioned "how things should sound" and your feeling about ER4P. Those somewhat sum up my thought. I haven't heard too many phones out there, but like you I am searching for that sound in my head, the sound that as if the instrument is playing in front of you, instead of the "recording" feel of the ER4P.

Btw, my thought regarding the ER4P is the sound is uninvolving, but I cant really fault it. With the right EQ, the high is good, the mid is good, the bass is good too, but the feeling factor is just lacking. Like you said, it sound like a recording, a good one at it, a reference phone feeling. For vocal, I demand to get the emotion of the singer. For instruments, I demand the feel that the instrument is playing in front of me, and real instrument should not sound like a good synthesizer.

As for the SA6. When I heard you mentioning the mid sounds distant, I immediately know that something isn't right because IMO the mid is what the SA6 is about. Upfront, prominent, slightly warmish. It seems to be the closest among to what I have heard to what I am looking for. But I was lacking the "this is it" enthusiasm, and I wasn't sure why. In fact, my heart goes towards the ER4P despite it's major flaw in my book. But I think you mentioned what might be the reason of my lack of enthusiasm. It is the warmish sound that is a tad unrealistic.

It may sound like I am dishing the SA6 and the ER4P, but I am not. In fact I put them on the top of the list of those I have heard (including UE 3/5/10, Westones, Grado and etc). I have a feeling that ClieOS mentioned too, I am looking in the wrong place (the IEM land), when I am paying for this much I ask a lot. I'm wondering if I should just stick with a half decent IEM and concentrate on a home setup.
 
Apr 26, 2008 at 11:49 AM Post #6 of 14
Have an idea: what are you guys listening through?? I too have SA6,Ety4p, and now klipsch Image. But they're plugged into a 5.5gImod through portable v-cap and Portaphile amp--sometimes Tomahawk.

And with this arrangement, I'm getting a totallydifferent sonic impression. Not that yours aren't valid: I just thnk listening through IEMs straight out of a DAP is going to sound differently than listening with amplification, modifications, etc. I find the SA6 with treble ++ and bass either = or + to be a wonderful experience with symphony and jazz.

So seems to me perhaps the whole audion stream is dependent upon all the accessories you're using
 
Apr 27, 2008 at 10:25 PM Post #8 of 14
I have been hot and cold on the ER4P. Owned them and sold the twice and I will never purchase them again unless it also involves a nice warm amp with EQ. With the right synergy it will THEN compete with TFP's and SE530.
 
Apr 28, 2008 at 9:04 PM Post #9 of 14
That's why I let SA6 go.

I returned them last weekend, because after I got my Triple-Fi, SA6 sound veiled to me.

What I really liked about SA6 is very spatial sound of them, not fatiguing High, Very foward and sweetest mid like ER4-P and Nice reverbing bass.

What made me let them go? When i listen to fast paced Rock, Trance, house music, everything get mixed up and i can't seperate or enjoy the music.

For the seperation and detail, my q-Jays were way much better, and my New Triples were win by miles!

SA6 were just musical phone but that is all. I didn't have the feeling that made me think "This is it!"

Bad news is that my Triplfe-Fi is broke while I was doing Flip-Flop mode so i have to RMA to UE and I have no descent phones but only stock earphones!!!

q-Jays are sold and SA6 had to go, my friend borrowed my ER-4p, Triples are broken!

But since I know Triple is the end of IEM journey for me(never say never though), I'll just wait and live with them until Westone 3 comes out! good luck with your journey for IEM!
 
Apr 28, 2008 at 9:21 PM Post #10 of 14
To my ear, this sounds like a problem with armature drivers in general. Every armature I've heard has suffered from this hospital-room antisepsis, and it isn't like the way, say, an electrostat is analytical. It's almost like dissection, very informative, not so lively. My question is whether a dynamic canalphone can offer a more organic sound without losing too much of the detail resolution.
 
Apr 28, 2008 at 9:32 PM Post #11 of 14
As others said, it is more like IEM sound in general. I see you have RS-2, which is a good can. Why not buy non-grado cans instead of spending money on those IEMs? It is just a suggestion btw.
 
Apr 29, 2008 at 12:00 AM Post #13 of 14
Thanks guys for all the support, comments, and suggestions. I just got back from shipping the SA6 out back to SoundEarphones, even though I know I'll be docked $15+$8 for restocking and shipping fee.
rolleyes.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by wnmnkh /img/forum/go_quote.gif
As others said, it is more like IEM sound in general. I see you have RS-2, which is a good can. Why not buy non-grado cans instead of spending money on those IEMs? It is just a suggestion btw.


I wanted to try IEMs again because they were want I first started out with on my Head-Fi journey, but these days I realize how restricting their sound and usage is compared to nice full-size headphones. So I am pretty sure I still stay away from any and every IEM from now on. Don't want to get burned again.
cool.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by whitevitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Anyone using an amp with SA6?

I am "thinking" of getting one.. I am currently using Sony A728 DAP.

Will any amp make a big or little difference?

Thx



Reading from the large SA6 thread, the general consensus seems that they do not provide much difference with an amp, but a few said when they hooked the SA6 up to a home amp, the difference was very noticeable, but then it defeats the point of portability, no?
wink.gif
 
Apr 29, 2008 at 12:52 AM Post #14 of 14
Do your grados give you the sound youre looking for, thats engaging and detailed while still being fun? Are there any other cans that you really liked, to give us a little reference as to the sound sig you like? just curious, because what you describe sounds a lot like what I thought with many iems. Ive sorta just settled for a lesser sound with iems, and since I use them portably I'm not terribly picky about it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top