My Impressions: Clip vs. (2)amped nano
Mar 11, 2008 at 4:07 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 22

vranswer

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I took a few minutes yesterday to do some comparisons for anyone interested between a couple of value-priced amps I own, and contrast them with the new DAP darling - the Sansa Clip. My curiosity is how much improvement is available from an ultimate minimalist player of proven SQ to these entry-level ($70-$180) amps.

Secondly I venture to make a judgment, albeit strictly opinion, as to whether or not any quality increase is in fact ‘worth it’. My purpose is to analyze and describe sound of each rig, compare and contrast differences, and rate each for both sound and value. My hope is to offer some small insight to someone trying to figure out if the extra bucks are worth the price of admission into some of this stuff.

The Gear

Shure E500s (for all listening)

IPod nano 2nd Gen (source for both amps - all ALAC files)
Amps -GoVibe V & Headsix

Sansa Clip (using LAME V0 or higher MP3s)

Music

The Rebel Wheel - diagramma (chosen for its varied instruments, an awesome track)
Pain of Salvation - The Perfect Element I - Morning on Earth
Dead Soul Tribe - the january tree’s ‘Why’

nano/GoVibe combo:

Treble/cymbals - great detail, clear separation. GV5 definitely clarifies the upper-midrange so sorely missed from nano’s headphone out (one of the true annoyances of nano). “Morning on Earth” starts with what sounds like one of those toy-box keyboards you got as a child being played. Sounds right in your face, with timbre which can elicit some real emotion once you know the song - GV5 delivers beautifully. There is a particular sequence on ‘diagramma’ during which drummer Alain Bergeron’s snare drum sounds especially sweet, with that sharp and echoing attack/decay somewhat reminiscent of one of my old favorites, Bill Bruford. The GoVibe presents it very cleanly, but somewhat more analytically in contrast to Headsix.

Mids - Voices super clear, very forward..almost ‘high’ in my head, hard to describe. Again definitely takes mushiness out of nano’s headphone presentation and cleans everything up. With the nano, you’re fine if just hearing your collection in the background while doing something else, like cutting the grass or some such. But if you decide to really listen to your music this midrange deficiency becomes too apparent IMO.

Bass - lots of punch, probably 10-20% more oomph than headphone out. But also a little cold to me for lack of a better word, especially when compared to Headsix still to come. The ‘Why” track on the january tree album opens with an incredibly powerful thumping baseline which GV5 delivers with real authority, very forward and driving. Gives good feeling and musical enjoyment.

Staging - good separation side-to-side, couldn’t get as much a handle on front-to-back. As I say, almost felt somehow high in my head. Instrument easily more distinguishable than nano alone.


nano/Headsix combo:

Treble/cymbals - when you focus in on the upper end here you discover some fascinating details, that is if you can focus in. The Headsix is a wonderfully warm and engaging device. This warm sound without analysis might seem to color the entire presentation. But when you do get to serious listening, you discover crystal clear detail, splashy cymbal crashes, etc. It’s just offered up to you with this incredibly warm and engaging delivery which is downright addicting. Of the three rigs I cover here, this one clearly was the one most likely to make me stop analyzing and just start enjoying the music…“oops, supposed to be doing a review here” type-thinking.

Mids - Daniel Gildenlow’s voice in ‘Morning on Earth’ packs a lot of emotion, which the Headsix draws up with warmth and clarity. Vocals slightly warmer than GV5, but not especially noticeable. Headsix just seemed more accurate somehow.

Bass - here the Headsix breaks away with considerably more punch. Bass depth might actually be fairly close, but H6 is just a bass slam monster. Those with anemic-bass iPod malaise can find their cure right here, because this amp is just so much fun in bringing lively and bass-rich sound to your head. The opening bass line on the ‘Why’ Dead Soul Tribe track just thumps and grooves, giving that toe-tapping response that helps you drop the analysis and just start enjoying.

Staging - very three-dimensional sound from the H6, augmented by the beautiful warmth of presentation. There’s just something fuller and more rich-sounding when your music is delivered in this fashion. Side-to-side separation pretty much equal GV5, but more separated front-to-back. Head position dead-center in contrast to GoVibe.


Sansa Clip:

Treble/cymbals - very clear and present, much, much better than nano headphone out. Zero mushiness. diagramma snare drum passage had as sharp an attack as on either amped rigs above. Basically as clear as both of those.

Mids - vocal very clear, probably closer to GoVibe sound than H6, i.e,.somewhat colder or more neutral.

Bass - here’s where it gets most interesting. The tiny ‘clip’ that can roar - this thing is lightning in a box. Not the deepest, but goes down plenty low, and with strength and slam. Got the similar foot-tapping response as H6 during the ‘Why’ track, just a punchy, driving low-end that’s very satisfying. Doesn’t overwhelm the entire spectrum but does have an impact. An equal to either of the above with one important caveat (next).

Staging - the distinction is in the depth or liveliness of not just the bass but entire delivery. Where the Clip shows its size apparently is in sound staging. Now, it could be lossy compression exacerbating here, but that’s a debate for another thread (too many other threads). The Clip is noticeably flatter front-to-back, and even up-and-down. While H6 leads this small pack in that area, the Sansa is the trailer. It doesn’t ruin the listening experience all that much IMO, but in contrast can easily be heard.


Bottom Lines:

As of this writing, a 2GB Sansa Clip can go in US for about $50, maybe less. Pretty much the size forces use of lossy MP3s, so some of that liveliness may be a necessary compromise. You’d be set back $200-$300 for the other two rigs, so question is, is it worth it? For myself, it has been quite worth it. I would not be satisfied with just my Clip/E500 rig because I occasionally have a need for more reference-quality listening. At the same time, physically active usage though the little Clip is mighty fine, convenient and very unobtrusive.

I’m thinking of divesting all extraneous equipment and keeping both the Clip and nano/H6 combo and stay happy as a lark. Hope this helps any interested HeadFi ers.
 
Mar 12, 2008 at 5:50 PM Post #2 of 22
How about the clip with the amp. that would be a more fair comparison. I would be interested to see how they match up then.
 
Mar 13, 2008 at 5:21 AM Post #3 of 22
i have the 3g nano and have not heard the clip yet only can understand with its performance how it sounds as it is supposed to be similar to the ipod shuffle 1g but with less hiss.

one thing i love the 3g nano for is soundstage. it is huge. of course, i came from the cowon d2 which was like putting the music into a box and punching a hole in the side and listening to that. cheers

clip i will hear in a few days.
 
Mar 13, 2008 at 6:17 AM Post #4 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamess71 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
How about the clip with the amp. that would be a more fair comparison. I would be interested to see how they match up then.


The purpose of my comparison was to investigate whether an amped iPod nano (using lineout) delivers sufficient SQ improvement over an unamped but high quality minimalist DAP such as the Sansa Clip. Don't see much value in amping a headphone out signal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
i have the 3g nano and have not heard the clip yet only can understand with its performance how it sounds as it is supposed to be similar to the ipod shuffle 1g but with less hiss.

one thing i love the 3g nano for is soundstage. it is huge. of course, i came from the cowon d2 which was like putting the music into a box and punching a hole in the side and listening to that. cheers

clip i will hear in a few days.



I would predict you'll enjoy the Clip right much, it's a nifty little player and does sound like a slightly warmer Shuffle. Interesting statement about 3G nano. Would you say its soundstage surpasses 2nd Gen nano, and is this primarily from lineout?
 
Mar 13, 2008 at 7:17 AM Post #5 of 22
oh right sorry, i have not heard the 2g nano, only the 1g, the classic, the 5.5 and the touch (which i also own).

the 3g is honestly one of my favourite players. it has a more hifi presentation than the touch but the touch is also a favourite of mine for its deep yet dry and wide presentation.

i primarily listen straight from the headphone out though at times i use my lod and my supermicro iv (beautiful setup and very coveted)!

from what i understand though, the 2g and the 3g should be quite similar though i am not sure how similar. some people did not like the sound of the 2g i understand but if it is anything like the 3g, i cannot imagine why.

wow, a warmer shuffle? i loved the presentation of the shuffle so much with my only complaint that it hisses quite badly though still less than many players of the day. i own the well received sony 615 as well and while i like it heaps, i cannot get past a few things: my nano has gapless playback and hisses only so little. the sony may like the clip (well according to some studies, it does better) drive low imp phones very well, but to miss gapless for me is hard.

i know i will probably either get a clip or express when next i am in a country that sells them as a throw around small player, though i may even chose the more sturdy yet not as good shuffle 3g.

lovely review by the way - enjoy the action!
 
Mar 13, 2008 at 8:45 AM Post #6 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by vranswer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The purpose of my comparison was to investigate whether an amped iPod nano (using lineout) delivers sufficient SQ improvement over an unamped but high quality minimalist DAP such as the Sansa Clip. Don't see much value in amping a headphone out signal.


Why isnt it worth amping a headphone out signal? And that might not be the point but I'd also liked to know how an amped clip is compared to an ipod nano 2g
 
Mar 13, 2008 at 1:20 PM Post #7 of 22
You would just be producing an amped version of the player's sound sig. Lineout theoretically gives you a clean, high-voltage signal which the amp then processes with its own circuitry.


Quote:

Originally Posted by montell /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why isnt it worth amping a headphone out signal? And that might not be the point but I'd also liked to know how an amped clip is compared to an ipod nano 2g


 
Mar 13, 2008 at 1:39 PM Post #8 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by vranswer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You would just be producing an amped version of the player's sound sig. Lineout theoretically gives you a clean, high-voltage signal which the amp then processes with its own circuitry.


Well from what I've read is that the ipod lineout dock is exactly the same as its headphone out only the volume is fixed at a certain level. But the signal runs through the same path of circuits. Where did you get the idea that the lineout gives a clean signal and the headphone out doesnt? And surely the digital signal must run through some sort of DAC before ending up as an analog signal at the lineout. That DAC also converts the signal for the headphone. Really the pathway is the same from what I've read though I dont know the technical details
 
Mar 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM Post #9 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by montell /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well from what I've read is that the ipod lineout dock is exactly the same as its headphone out only the volume is fixed at a certain level. But the signal runs through the same path of circuits. Where did you get the idea that the lineout gives a clean signal and the headphone out doesnt? And surely the digital signal must run through some sort of DAC before ending up as an analog signal at the lineout. That DAC also converts the signal for the headphone. Really the pathway is the same from what I've read though I dont know the technical details


Yeah, I think it was Bangraman who compared iPod's lineout with headphone out at maxxed out volume and concluded they were identical. The quality of signal that comes out the other end of the DAC is always subject to discussion, and many amps have higher quality DACs built in.

I'm not sure about a lot of it, maybe someone with more technical knowledge can contribute. I do know that some DAPs will begin to distort at max volume, which is where you have to crank them to then amp the headphone out. Obviously not what we want here. If there's interest though, I could give it a whirl and see if anything of value can be observed.
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 7:07 PM Post #11 of 22
Well, since both the Clip and the Nano 2G support WAV, wouldn't the best direct comparison be done using a format supported by both players (especially uncompressed audio)?

Regarding the headphone out: I use a Clip into the preamps of an Allen & Heath mixer all the time, and the S/N ratio is low enough that I can manage solid volume levels with minimal distortion, if any. Haven't done any measurements though, just some critical listening....
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM Post #12 of 22
I was more interested in the comparison between the 2 players UN-AMPED. I think most people aren't going to be interested in lugging around amps if they're intending to use either of these VERY portable players (might as well get a larger HD player then if you're one of those people who lug around amps wherever you go).
smily_headphones1.gif


Anyway, I AB'd the two with my atrios using the same mp3's at 320 and no EQ. Upon first listen, the difference in sound wasn't really large enough to say "wow, what a difference". The most noticeable thing I was able to pick up on was that I think the clip is actually a little more extended with the bass. You really have to listen carefully to pick up the differences.

dscf2638mb8.jpg
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 8:25 PM Post #13 of 22
I own a Nano 3G and a Clip, and I tend to agree with EsthetiX except for one thing... I paid $35.00 for my Clip. That IS a difference that matters to some....
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 10:16 PM Post #14 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by vranswer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yeah, I think it was Bangraman who compared iPod's lineout with headphone out at maxxed out volume and concluded they were identical. The quality of signal that comes out the other end of the DAC is always subject to discussion, and many amps have higher quality DACs built in.

I'm not sure about a lot of it, maybe someone with more technical knowledge can contribute. I do know that some DAPs will begin to distort at max volume, which is where you have to crank them to then amp the headphone out. Obviously not what we want here. If there's interest though, I could give it a whirl and see if anything of value can be observed.



No I didn't. I compared with the iPod at volume set to zero gain, which is about 6db's off maximum volume.
 
Mar 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM Post #15 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by vranswer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yeah, I think it was Bangraman who compared iPod's lineout with headphone out at maxxed out volume and concluded they were identical. The quality of signal that comes out the other end of the DAC is always subject to discussion, and many amps have higher quality DACs built in.

I'm not sure about a lot of it, maybe someone with more technical knowledge can contribute. I do know that some DAPs will begin to distort at max volume, which is where you have to crank them to then amp the headphone out. Obviously not what we want here. If there's interest though, I could give it a whirl and see if anything of value can be observed.





So what do you gain when you use an $$$ dock connector then ? Just bypasses the headphone jack?
 

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