My cat tore up my Virtual Dynamics Power 3...
Feb 9, 2008 at 9:39 PM Post #436 of 773

Uncle Erik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
agreed and thanks for the clarification, yes the above listed companies are large and without a doubt have a qualified R&D staff.

I was speaking in the context of ampbuilders in our community, many are 1 to a just a few person operations that do not have the resources for an R&D staff.



The difference between amps and cables is vast.

For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.

When the innards of such a product turn out to be ordinary house wiring inside a garden hose, people tend to doubt the claims and testimonials. With an amp, you can do a parts count. You can test it. Not to say every builder is on the level - there's one who charges premium prices for amps that clearly are not.

But testing is the acid test of any electronic product. Virtual Dynamics is welcome to share their R&D here, but choose not to. Draw your own conclusions. Most amp makers will rattle off their stats and talk about the circuit.

This is not so much a cost:benefit analysis of cables but a question of their legitimacy.
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 9:51 PM Post #437 of 773

jp11801

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The difference between amps and cables is vast.

For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.

When the innards of such a product turn out to be ordinary house wiring inside a garden hose, people tend to doubt the claims and testimonials. With an amp, you can do a parts count. You can test it. Not to say every builder is on the level - there's one who charges premium prices for amps that clearly are not.

But testing is the acid test of any electronic product. Virtual Dynamics is welcome to share their R&D here, but choose not to. Draw your own conclusions. Most amp makers will rattle off their stats and talk about the circuit.

This is not so much a cost:benefit analysis of cables but a question of their legitimacy.



I am going to agree to disagree with you
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 10:21 PM Post #438 of 773

dvw

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif

For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.



Actually, cables are tested and modeled regularly in communication; and standards and specification are made based on these tests. For example; Cat3, Cat5, Cat5e and now Cat6 cable. USB, HDMI cables are all specified. If you check Belden, every cables that they sell has a specification. Without a specification, it will be near impossible to design any kind of equipment.

It is only the boutique cables that are not tested.
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 10:38 PM Post #440 of 773

yotacowboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
At least my headphones, CD player, DAC, etc etc were all built well, and weren't straight up lied about in the marketing department. The markups were also more justified given these companies actually perform R&D and have other justified expenses. (At least more justified than VD's expenses, considering they don't actually perform real R&D).


Mark-ups are there TO MAKE MONEY. That. is. it.

Profit.

R&D costs are passed DIRECTLY on to the retailers, and further, on to you. R&D is not part of a mark-up. it is part of the cost of operating a business. Any company has the right to charge WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR for any product or service. Justification of R&D costs is based on increased sales, decreased costs or a combination of both. NOT based on whether some dude endlessly posting away on an internet forum "thinks" it's justified because he can quote some measurement.

Marketing IS lying. Everything you buy has been marked up and marketed. If you don't want mark-ups, and hate being lied to, make things yourself, or don't buy anything at all. It really is that simple. If you're worried about being ripped off, caveat emptor. Due diligence is YOUR responsibility as a consumer, not the manufacturer's. For whatever reason, you seem to think that the audio world functions (or should function) outside the realm of a market driven economy. this is an incorrect assumption.

Your precious headphones are severely marked up. The numbers on the back of the box are pure marketing... 20-20,000Hz? 101dB @ 1mW? These are meaningless numbers - and you should know that given your posting history.

The actual material costs and manufacturing costs for your CD player are likely less than 1/6th the price that you paid for it. You get "ripped off" with EVERYTHING YOU BUY.
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 10:59 PM Post #441 of 773

slwiser

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Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif

You get "ripped off" with EVERYTHING YOU BUY.



You know something, I have to disagree with this statement even thought it looks so reasonable on the surface. If I attempt to make something and charge myself my rate that I get at my work then everything I have purchase at discounted retail prices is a bargain. Even those so-called over priced cables ever one is talking about. Yea, it is nice if you are not doing anything else, just sitting around doing nothing, having someone else support you like parents or some government program but to think that just building something would result in a bargain is wrong. What is my time worth? A whole lot more than what it would cost me to build a cable equal to one of the items like a Virtual Dynamics David "R" cable for about 300$. How long does it take to go out and get the materials? How much time do I take considering the design features to put into it? Physically how much time does it take to weave a cable into those intricate patterns around a cotton center and then wrap each them them with the appropriate wrapping before finishing it? How about the time it takes to set up a jig so that I could even begin to weave a proper cable? It is all about how much you value your time. This is what determines whether something is a bargain in my book. It would appear that some do not value their time as I do.

No, for me DIY is not a bargain. The bargains are those things that allow me to enjoy my down-time and relax to get ready to enter the world the next day. This is how I determine what is a bargain. Now it would be nice if I was one of those people who could combine those two things but I am not, I don't have that much time. Now that would be a bargain indeed. Maybe after retirement like some people in that commercial about graduation. When asked what was he going to do with his degree, replying he thought that retirement looked good to him.
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 11:11 PM Post #442 of 773

gritzcolin

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So what do these tests test ?


They test the tolerances. For example the HDMI spec calls for 100 ohm pairs, +/- 10 ohms.
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 11:32 PM Post #443 of 773

dvw

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So what do these tests test ?


L, C, and R .
Noise immunity
Impedance (differential and common mode)
emission property
frequency bandwidth/attenuation (in relationship to distance)

Essentially this will enable you to have a quality control standard as well as a mathematical model for circuit simulation.
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 11:36 PM Post #444 of 773

dvw

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Quote:

Originally Posted by slwiser /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You know something, I have to disagree with this statement even thought it looks so reasonable on the surface. If I attempt to make something and charge myself my rate that I get at my work then everything I have purchase at discounted retail prices is a bargain. Even those so-called over priced cables ever one is talking about. Yea, it is nice if you are not doing anything else, just sitting around doing nothing, having someone else support you like parents or some government program but to think that just building something would result in a bargain is wrong. What is my time worth? A whole lot more than what it would cost me to build a cable equal to one of the items like a Virtual Dynamics David "R" cable for about 300$. How long does it take to go out and get the materials? How much time do I take considering the design features to put into it? Physically how much time does it take to weave a cable into those intricate patterns around a cotton center and then wrap each them them with the appropriate wrapping before finishing it? How about the time it takes to set up a jig so that I could even begin to weave a proper cable? It is all about how much you value your time. This is what determines whether something is a bargain in my book. It would appear that some do not value their time as I do.

No, for me DIY is not a bargain. The bargains are those things that allow me to enjoy my down-time and relax to get ready to enter the world the next day. This is how I determine what is a bargain. Now it would be nice if I was one of those people who could combine those two things but I am not, I don't have that much time. Now that would be a bargain indeed. Maybe after retirement like some people in that commercial about graduation. When asked what was he going to do with his degree, replying he thought that retirement looked good to him.



You are too expensive. That's why we want to out source your job to China.
biggrin.gif
 
Feb 9, 2008 at 11:45 PM Post #445 of 773

slwiser

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dvw /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You are too expensive. That's why we want to out source your job to China.
biggrin.gif



Good response....then I would have all the time I needed since you would be helping the government support me in my DIY efforts...Great ideal. I would not have to worry about facing tomorrow ready to do real work getting up a 4 am after having to go to bed something around 8 in the evening.
 
Feb 10, 2008 at 1:16 AM Post #446 of 773

immtbiker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why does this forum feel its necessary to censor the audio "skeptics" true ace in the pocket? DBT, which is essentially the only true means of testing audio equipment .


Because it does. DBT discussions have shown a history of tearing down a thread and causing huge fights.
It's a rule that we need to follow or else post elsewhere.

Why is the speed limit on the Long Island Expressway 50 mph when I can safely travel at 60 mph? Because it is, and I'll get a ticket if choose to ignore it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This thread makes me happy.


Why would a thread about someone getting their cable annihilated by their cat, make you happy
confused.gif
?
 
Feb 10, 2008 at 1:16 AM Post #447 of 773

bigshot

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pars /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Do a Google on "SPDIF sucks" or look at this to see why your digital cable might make a difference.


I'm sure that SPDIFsucks.com is a branch of a peer reviewed audio journal and as such is above reproach!

See ya
Steve
 
Feb 10, 2008 at 1:21 AM Post #448 of 773

hempcamp

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Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Because it does. DBT discussions have shown a history of tearing down a thread and causing huge fights.
It's a rule that we need to follow or else post elsewhere.



So do discussions about AKG K701s having no bass, but we don't ban AKG discussions (thank goodness).

It's a bit disingenuous to ban a legitimate (in every other discipline or hobby in the world) testing method just because some people can't handle adult discussions about it.

--Chris
 
Feb 10, 2008 at 1:21 AM Post #449 of 773

Sovkiller

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Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why would a thread about someone getting their cable annihilated by their cat, make you happy
confused.gif
?



Maybe becasue he believes it was the best thing that could happen to it...
wink.gif
(that was a JOKE, OK?)
 
Feb 10, 2008 at 1:24 AM Post #450 of 773

bigshot

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Quote:

Originally Posted by immtbiker /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Febs, the sticky clearly states that any mention of DBT testing is not allowed and in OverlordXenu's post it refers to DBT testing of SACD vs. Redbook no matter what the conclusion is, it was mentioned and linked.


Why can someone mention their own informal test results, but they can't cite more carefully done tests? I understand why discussion of methodology is a trouble spot. Some people can't resist grinding discussions of methodology into the ground. But citing the results of "controlled listening tests" is just as valid as citing the results of lab measurements, magazine reviews, or the results of informal A/B comparisons in the home.

It should be fine to refer to a controlled test as a "controlled test" and not debate the fine points of methodology.

That said, I have done extensive comparisons between SACD and redbook myself, and I found that the differences between the two formats were always a result of mastering differences, not the audio reproduction quality of the format itself. Using a Pentatone DSD SACD/CD hybrid, I was able to do direct balanced level A/B comparisons that showed that the two layers sounded identical. This informal test supports the "controlled test" cited above. So the point that there is no audible difference between SACD and redbook stands.

See ya
Steve
 

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