MS-2s or 650s with a PPX3

Sep 26, 2004 at 3:50 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 14

vanillawafer

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Ok, I have been searching around and reading up quite a bit on what people are using with their MPX or PPX amps, and it seems like most are using the HD-650s, but I'm not sure if that is the route I want to go. First, it seems that you HAVE to add on an after market headphone cable like the ZU if you want this phone to sing, and that brings the price to $350+ for the Cans and another $150 for the cable so about $500 for these cans. Now there is the MS-2 that a lot of people talk about, and it's priced much better at around $300.00, and some claim it's a better can. Now I don't want to start a war over HD-650s and MS-2s, but I would like some opinions on the route I should take. I currently have a pair of a900s and I love the sound of these cans, they work great with rock, but I also listen to a lot of vocal & jazzy type music (Sarah mc, sting, eagles, dire str8s, yada yada yada), so I would like a good complement to the a900s. I also have a pair of Sen HD-25s on the way that I will be using at work, or possibly at home too. So lets hear it, what do you all think. Oh yeah, in case it matters, the mods I added to the PPX3 are the stage 1 power upgrade and the paper in oil caps. Thanks for your time!
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 6:29 AM Post #2 of 14
You honestly need to listen to the headphones in order to find out what you like.

I can't emphasize that enough.

If you know your preferences already, describe them to us.

Even then, you really won't know until you try the headphone...will you? No matter how much we might like to think that we can objectify the subjective character of experience, it's just not possible. We will never know what it's like to be a bat; we can imagine ourselves as a bat with a radically different system of sensory perception, but we will never know what it's like to actually be a bat. Similarly, we will never know what it's like to be you, nor will we ever be able to fully characterize how you perceive reality; your subjective character of experience eludes our grasp. Thus, there are some types of knowledge that exist that we can never know.

Talking about "what headphones are best for you" is a lot like, well...

It's like starting a thread over whether apples or oranges are better.

I might write a thought-provoking and ultimately persuasive argument that convinces you that apples can seduce the most hide-bound taster with their sweet succor...but then some other person will interject that oranges provide ancillary benefits such as Vitamin-C, which would nourish you back to health from illness and provide the same sweetness. Then I will rebuke his spurious claim by citing that although their citrusness does indeed yield innumerate health benefits, it is not worth compromising taste, for oranges are known for occasionally being too bitter or too sweet. This can go on and on, ad nauseum, until one of us exhausts our attention span and begins devoting our attention to something more deserving of our time, like watching paint dry.

This exercise in pointless discussion is bewildering even to someone who has tried both apples and oranges, one after the other...I can't even fathom how a person who hasn't tried apples or oranges would react to this litany of contradictory information.

This can go on for days, weeks, months, even years...in fact, entire forums, such as those at www.head-fi.org , are founded on the principle that people are stubborn and petty enough to argue over why their headphones sound better than someone else's...or how some headphone their lusting after sounds better than their own or someone else's...or even more humorously, how someone else is hearing something "wrong."

That being said, I think the MS-2s complement the ATH-A900s better than the HD650s.
orphsmile.gif


MS-2s = no soundstage, lots of impact, liquid mids, rapid transients; HD650s = soundstage, like the ATH-A900s, more laid back, a more subued, darker version of the ATH-A900s with more clarity and resolution.

But yeah, hit a meet and try the darn headphones to see if you like them...ignore my philosophical ruminations.
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 7:15 AM Post #3 of 14
The after-market cables are NOT necessary with the Senns. It's an option if you want to take things to the next level you don't have on many other headphones without modifications (and those which do get recommended all the time also, like the K271s). Don't be fooled by this.
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 7:20 AM Post #4 of 14
that depends on what kind of "complement" you are after.... if you wanna have more fun whilst listening to rock stuff, MS2 then, but then if you wanna compliment for classical stuff, you might wanna look elsewhere...
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 7:36 AM Post #5 of 14
If you enjoy the ATs for rock and are looking for something for vocals and jazz, I would suggest the 650s over the ms-2s. I've never heard the ms-2s, but I would assume that the lack of sound stage would rule them out for these genres of music. Another can you may want to consider is the AKG K501s which might seem to be a good complement to the A900s.
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 10:08 AM Post #6 of 14
Save the extra money and get the HD650. There is no way the MS2 or the 325 can compete with the Senns with any kind of music. They are not as clean sounding, dont have as nice of treble or midrange, the bass is muddy (and no where near as deep or with the impact) compared to the 650. The senns are also more comfy once the band loosens up. Soundstage is not even close, in favor of the senns. With a good amp the MS2 is not faster than the senns either. If you feel the senns are over priced at 350 you are going to be very bummed out at the MS2 for 300. The after market cable is not a requirement...just another advantage of the senns. Build quality is also better with the 650.
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 10:20 AM Post #7 of 14
Another vote for the 650. The 650 is the best all round headpone I have heard. The 650 does not need the aftermarket cable to sound superior, but it benefits from one down the road. I used my 650's for months before I got an aftermarket cable. The oehlbach was actually inexpensive at around $55 when I bought one.
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 10:31 AM Post #8 of 14
If you end up not being able to decide, you could always get the HD580 AND MS1 for cheaper than either of your other options.
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 11:26 AM Post #9 of 14
Agreed. HD650 does not need an aftermarket cable to make it sing. The 'stock cable' is good enough. Just hope your ancilliary equipment is up to it.

Try listening to Sting's 'Nothing Like the Sun' album through these (esp' the drums in 'Englishman in New York'). Or even the Police's 'Syncronicity'. That'll make your buying decision easier, ie: You'll want the HD650's.
600smile.gif


I also have HD25's. Excellent phones too. Less 'dark' than HD650's. Presentation is more 'forward'. Treble a little rolled-off. Bass is warm, full and deep. Detail/resolution is high. Comfort? might get a bit sweaty when hot.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Sep 26, 2004 at 1:28 PM Post #10 of 14
Excellent! The 650's it is. Since I can't try before I buy I'm going with the 650's. I'm guessing these will suit my needs a little better, and since I don't HAVE to have the upgrade cable and can wait on that for a later time, at only about 25-50 more it seems that the 650's are superior. Thanks for all of your time!
 
Sep 27, 2004 at 12:25 AM Post #11 of 14
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchman27
You honestly need to listen to the headphones in order to find out what you like.


Yes, always true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchman27
Even then, you really won't know until you try the headphone...will you? No matter how much we might like to think that we can objectify the subjective character of experience, it's just not possible. We will never know what it's like to be a bat; we can imagine ourselves as a bat with a radically different system of sensory perception, but we will never know what it's like to actually be a bat. Similarly, we will never know what it's like to be you, nor will we ever be able to fully characterize how you perceive reality; your subjective character of experience eludes our grasp. Thus, there are some types of knowledge that exist that we can never know.


"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." C'mon, it's just headphones
wink.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchman27
Talking about "what headphones are best for you" is a lot like, well...

It's like starting a thread over whether apples or oranges are better.

I might write a thought-provoking and ultimately persuasive argument that convinces you that apples can seduce the most hide-bound taster with their sweet succor...but then some other person will interject that oranges provide ancillary benefits such as Vitamin-C, which would nourish you back to health from illness and provide the same sweetness. Then I will rebuke his spurious claim by citing that although their citrusness does indeed yield innumerate health benefits, it is not worth compromising taste, for oranges are known for occasionally being too bitter or too sweet. This can go on and on, ad nauseum, until one of us exhausts our attention span and begins devoting our attention to something more deserving of our time, like watching paint dry.

This exercise in pointless discussion is bewildering even to someone who has tried both apples and oranges, one after the other...I can't even fathom how a person who hasn't tried apples or oranges would react to this litany of contradictory information.

This can go on for days, weeks, months, even years...in fact, entire forums, such as those at www.head-fi.org , are founded on the principle that people are stubborn and petty enough to argue over why their headphones sound better than someone else's...or how some headphone their lusting after sounds better than their own or someone else's...or even more humorously, how someone else is hearing something "wrong."



Why would you think that comparing headphones is pointless even if the contenders are from opposite sides of the spectrum (MS2 being around 350nm and HD650 around 550nm maybe...)? I thought that's the purpose of this forum. Of course there are always fanboys who want to justify their purchase by hyping their headphones above everything else without proper substantiation. However, I believe that the majority doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanillawafer
Excellent! The 650's it is.


Very good choice and probably the safest choice as well. This headphone doesn't have anything that can sometimes turn people off such as the brightness of the CD3000, I agree, or the high treble energy of the RS1/MS Pro or .... They are all good, especially the RS1 but the HD650 just suits me better. Some may call the HD650 boring and laid-back. I prefer the denotations natural and realistic - especially if paired with the proper amp. Some say the HD650 has a veil. I couldn't find it on a good source and amp. The HD650 is very versatile and if I could only own one headphone, this would be it. The best dynamic headphone I've heard so far. Well, I still need to listen to those >$1000 Sonys, Ultrasones and ATs. By the way, does this count as fanboy-ism (because I don't even own the HD650s yet)...
 
Sep 27, 2004 at 1:41 AM Post #12 of 14
This is a comfy bandwagon!
It's the 650's for me too, can only compare them to E5's.
I did go for aftermarket cable (Zu), and apart from when I plugged in my Cyrus DAC X it's the only time I've heard a real improvement in sound quality. Although the others are right, they sing without it!
Mine plug into a Sugden, If there is better out there I don't want to hear it! I need cash to buy some CD's!
 
Sep 27, 2004 at 2:22 AM Post #13 of 14
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gundam
Agreed. HD650 does not need an aftermarket cable to make it sing. The 'stock cable' is good enough. Just hope your ancilliary equipment is up to it.

Try listening to Sting's 'Nothing Like the Sun' album through these (esp' the drums in 'Englishman in New York'). Or even the Police's 'Syncronicity'. That'll make your buying decision easier, ie: You'll want the HD650's.
600smile.gif


I also have HD25's. Excellent phones too. Less 'dark' than HD650's. Presentation is more 'forward'. Treble a little rolled-off. Bass is warm, full and deep. Detail/resolution is high. Comfort? might get a bit sweaty when hot.
smily_headphones1.gif



BTW I love that electronic bass solo in "englishman in new york" too - on the MS-2
smily_headphones1.gif
and that branford marsalis sax solo at the end, you can hear the pads hit the sax...I think both cans bring plenty to the table, it's like apples and oranges imho.
 
Sep 27, 2004 at 2:46 AM Post #14 of 14
Another plug for the stock Senn. cable being just fine with the 650s. I just put the stock cable back in after having an aftermarket cable for a while. The 650s don't need a replacement cable to show off its abilities, but they do squeeze out just a bit more detail and oomph in the bass.
 

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