[ralphp@optonline]

  As mentioned before, I am no techie so  I have used the words of others who understand the issues much better than I
 
"Brick-wall - (insert lots of nifty techno babble here) - of MQA

Meridian can say whatever they want but that does not make it true.
 
Again, what about music digitally recorded at sample rates below 192kHz?

 

[RRod]

So the argument is that if two twigs snapped 10microseconds apart, this would sound "different" when sent through a 192 vs. 44.1 chain? So I can take any given transient at 192, delay it by 2 samples, combine the two files, downsample to 44.1 and back to 192, and I'd be able to tell the difference? Sounds easy enough to test. Or do you mean something different?

 

[Gringo]

The first sentence above is why I am still confused or that you seriously misinformed. Case in point:
 
1) If the original recording is an analog recording and is being remastered then the analog masters are being converted anew to digital so what why would the original DAC even matter.
 
2) If the original recording is an analog recording and the original DAC matters then it is NOT being remastered but only processed, which as I stated previously means EQUALIZATION!
 
3) If the original recording is a digital recording then, as I stated previous, no amount of processing is going to recover the sounds not present on the original recording so that leaves only EQUALIZATION!
 
So please get your facts straightened out before you respond.
 
points 1&2  Any CD or audio file either streamed or downloaded has to be sampled regardless off the original master being analogue or digital which you obviously already understand.
therefore new improved sampling using latest technology of analogue will inevitably produce better results. As you will know DACs have come on a long way.
 
For decades now masters have been generated digitally, which again you already know, therefore being able to deal with the unwanted additions the original digital process applied to the recording is beneficial. This is not simply increasing or decreasing specific frequency range i.e equilisation.  In fact if we could remove much of the original equalisation the studios have in fact applied to make music stand out in the loudness wars over recent years that would be brilliant, (I am not claiming MQA does that)
 
I repeat again. No one, repeat no one is claiming that what was not originally captured can be restored.  Meridian are not claiming MQA is completely lossless, only that "the human hearing system is sensitive to about 10 microseconds in time resolution and here’s the kicker: much/most of this resolution is destroyed in anything encoded digitally below a 192kHz sampling rate",. With MQA this hi-res data is stored completely below the noise floor thus reducing file size significantly. If you don't have a decoder the file plays as a regular PCM file so it won't cost you a bean other than the purchase of the file.  MQA requires to be decoded to get the full benefits and that is where the additional cost kicks in, (only if you want it). Streaming/downloading services don't have to store different versions of millions of albums plus all the backups.
 
this link might be of help, it is nearly 9 mins long and explains in general terms what its all about.  It does not go into great technical detail, I guess Meridian are not going to let anyone near that for obvious reasons-        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VvIGzGWSK48 
Ask your self this after watching the video.  Why would someone go to all the bother of developing a technology that you can use for free unless they were certain that you will want to invest in the technology to gain the full benefits.
 
I am not going to pursue the thread any further, I have done my limited best to dispel some misconceptions and I repeat for the last time.  You don't have to believe anybody, listen for yourself and then dismiss it as rubbish if you think it is, if you don't want to listen then that's OK if your happy with that.  Because we don't understand something does not make it wrong any more than accepting something just because someone says so is equally wrong but I guess that's a lesson from history all cultures have chosen or mistakenly ignored.
 
Happy listening

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Originally Posted by Gringo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
points 1&2  Any CD or audio file either streamed or downloaded has to be sampled regardless off the original master being analogue or digital which you obviously already understand.
therefore new improved sampling using latest technology of analogue will inevitably produce better results. As you will know DACs have come on a long way.
 
For decades now masters have been generated digitally, which again you already know, therefore being able to deal with the unwanted additions the original digital process applied to the recording is beneficial. This is not simply increasing or decreasing specific frequency range i.e equilisation.  In fact if we could remove much of the original equalisation the studios have in fact applied to make music stand out in the loudness wars over recent years that would be brilliant, (I am not claiming MQA does that)
 
I repeat again. No one, repeat no one is claiming that what was not originally captured can be restored.  Meridian are not claiming MQA is completely lossless, only that "the human hearing system is sensitive to about 10 microseconds in time resolution and here’s the kicker: much/most of this resolution is destroyed in anything encoded digitally below a 192kHz sampling rate",. With MQA this hi-res data is stored completely below the noise floor thus reducing file size significantly. If you don't have a decoder the file plays as a regular PCM file so it won't cost you a bean other than the purchase of the file.  MQA requires to be decoded to get the full benefits and that is where the additional cost kicks in, (only if you want it). Streaming/downloading services don't have to store different versions of millions of albums plus all the backups.
 
this link might be of help, it is nearly 9 mins long and explains in general terms what its all about.  It does not go into great technical detail, I guess Meridian are not going to let anyone near that for obvious reasons-        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VvIGzGWSK48 
Ask your self this after watching the video.  Why would someone go to all the bother of developing a technology that you can use for free unless they were certain that you will want to invest in the technology to gain the full benefits.
 
I am not going to pursue the thread any further, I have done my limited best to dispel some misconceptions and I repeat for the last time.  You don't have to believe anybody, listen for yourself and then dismiss it as rubbish if you think it is, if you don't want to listen then that's OK if your happy with that.  Because we don't understand something does not make it wrong any more than accepting something just because someone says so is equally wrong but I guess that's a lesson from history all cultures have chosen or mistakenly ignored.
 
Happy listening

Your answers only serve to prove just how totally clueless you are about digital audio,which is of course the main reason that you believe the nonsense that Meridian is pedaling. My guess is that you also believe those over priced cable ads with some model standing there in a white lab coat and the ridiculous "white papers" that the manufacturers provide. It's all just advertising, which is just another word for LIES.

 

[bigshot]

Thank you, the link would be good.

 
Here is how it works. You let me know if you want an ALAC or FLAC file. I will send you a download link. In the file are music samples- one choral and the other orchestral repeated ten times. The samples were selected by a golden eared audiophile as being the most difficult music for lossy formats to compress. One of the ten is the original lossless version. The other nine are Fraunhofer MP3, LAME MP3 and AAC at 192, 256 and 320. You listen to the samples and rank them from best to worst. Then you send your ranking to me, and I will tell you what each sample was. It's actually quite fun. But there is one rule that you have to agree to. This is a listening test only. You have to promise not to open the file in a sound editing program.
 
PM me and let me know if you would like ALAC or FLAC and I will send it to you.

 

[Gringo]

Your rudeness says everything. As I have said several times now, you don't need to believe me, that's ok. Go and listen for your self? your silence on that point is deafening. I will leave you to have the last word as clearly that's all your interested in.

All the best to you, goodbye and try and enjoy life.

 

[bigshot]

  The human hearing system is sensitive to about 10 microseconds in time resolution

 
That figure is WAY off. The JDT (just detectable threshold) for group delay (phase shift) for humans is 1 to 3 milliseconds. A millisecond is a thousandth of a second. Very very small. 10 microseconds is 100 times smaller than that- infinitesimally small... no way any human on earth could come anywhere close to detecting that. Perhaps you mean 10 milliseconds, in which case a 44.1 sampling rate would exceed that by 4,410 times. Even using my worst case figure of 1ms, Redbook exceeds that by 441 times.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Your rudeness says everything. As I have said several times now, you don't need to believe me, that's ok. Go and listen for your self? your silence on that point is deafening. I will leave you to have the last word as clearly that's all your interested in.

All the best to you, goodbye and try and enjoy life.

I'm being rude!?!?!
 
I've asked you several times to get your facts straight but yet you still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and just parrot back the nonsense that Meridian is spitting out. Here's a clue: learn what resampling means. Learn what a digital recording is. Learn what an analog recording is. Learn what a master recording is. Learn what a remastered recording is. And finally learn to think for yourself.

 

[Don Hills]

...  "the human hearing system is sensitive to about 10 microseconds in time resolution and here’s the kicker: much/most of this resolution is destroyed in anything encoded digitally below a 192kHz sampling rate" ...

 
That resolution is 10 microseconds ITD, not absolute. In other words, the difference in arrival time of (a) sound at each ear. That is not affected by the sampling rate, which of course affects both channels (ears) equally. The actual, achievable time resolution of a 44.1 KHz 16 bit digital stream is in the nanosecond range, acknowledged by Stuart himself (his exact words were "effectively infinite".)

 

[stv014]

Originally Posted by Gringo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I repeat again. No one, repeat no one is claiming that what was not originally captured can be restored.  Meridian are not claiming MQA is completely lossless, only that "the human hearing system is sensitive to about 10 microseconds in time resolution and here’s the kicker: much/most of this resolution is destroyed in anything encoded digitally below a 192kHz sampling rate"

 
If you have not watched it already, check this video at about 20:30-22:00. It shows that the "time resolution" of sampled audio is not limited to integer samples.

 

[britneedadvice]

Hi
 
I'm old ! I try to understand the 'modern' technology. Within a couple of minutes I have a brain seizure. I am not interested in how it works, only if it does.I'm an ex UK Police Officer,I deal in facts. The facts here (as far as I'm concerned) are only "does it sound better". Simple. Please do not ask me any technical questions.
 
I already owned  the Meridian Media System. In my Speaker system I have the VTL Amp and in my Headphone System, an Apex Teton/HD800- both systems being fully 'Entreq' ed - Grounded etc)I have several of my highly regarded (Classical)CDs downloaded to my HiFi Dealers Meridian system.(for me to use when I audition products)
 
So, I have today been to audition 'MQA'  System 818v3/ DSP 7200SE. Also present was the Rep from Meridian who gave me the full tech talk(yawn yawn).I had already spoken with my Dealer stating I wanted an A/B audition to compare with my own system.Not only was that not available but neither was there any music available to which I was familiar!! That is, Classical music downloaded in the MQA format.(so not the basis for a  'great' audition!!)
 
So the first track played was a Dave Burbeck track 'remastered' from 1953(something I had never heard before). This was clearly impressive. However, I had no way of telling what this was due to?? Recording, Source or Equipment!! So in many ways a totally worthless experience!! This continued with several other pieces of 'unknown' music all of which was clearly impressive.
 
The Rep left the Demo Room and I was free to speak to the Dealer.I asked if he could play some of my previously held recordings through the 'normal' Meridian Media System.
(sorry you'll have to research that if you are not familiar with it)
 
So now I've done some sort of A/B comparison. 'My' music, which I otherwise thought was special was ..............Crap!!!!!!!  Totally dull
 
This audition left me with more questions than it answered! I rang the Dealer when I got home.   "Did 'my music' really sound that bad? I asked
 
There's many questions yet to be answered before I buy this 'system' (bear in mind that I've already have the 818v2 , so I'm only talking about an 'upgrade').
 
This audition didn't even leave me with the knowledge to give you any idea just how much better the MQA sounded. So sorry, I can't help any more but I will definitely be going back for more!!
 
So, whatever the tech bits say, I suggest approach it with an 'open mind'

 

[bigshot]

It really helps to understand how digital audio works. I am an old coot from the analogue days too, but I made an effort to figure out the basics. It has helped me build a great sounding system and helped me with making sure I was getting bang for my buck and not throwing good money after bad. I use AAC 256 VBR exclusively in my system. It has compact file sizes and sounds as good as any other format to human ears. I know that because I personally tested it and a lot of people I know have tested it too. Not just informal comparisons, but carefully prepared line level matched, direct A/B switched blind comparisons. The problem isn't file sizes and bitrates. I know that for sure now.
 
There is too much gobble-de-gook in high end audio. Many manufacturers deliberately try to fudge their explanations and confuse their own customers to get them to give up and just put their faith in whatever they are told by the salesman. That's what is happening here.
 
Understanding isn't complicated. It just takes a little bit of time and effort. It's worth it.

 

[britneedadvice]

Hi
As stated,I try to understand the technology as much as possible but........!!
 
Further to my comments above.I've just finished penning an email to my HiFi Dealer following my audition of the MQA.
 
The audition was not a total success as I was not able to do A/B tests with my equipment/music. This was an audition presented by  Meridian and as such they used their Speakers and their choice of music (which I didn't know) .I just didn't fully engage with the sound ,why I just don't know.
 
Three issues were very clearly audible !. something good was happening with MQA. 2. 'My' music - which as I previously mentioned, is held by the Dealer on their Meridian hard drive, sounded awful by comparison !! 3. music streamed from Tidal was equally as bad(as my music) !!
 
I don't know all the answers yet so don't ask. I understand the music used in the initial demo had been MQAed from original source and downloaded to the system. So, not from Tidal.
 
I made the comment ( to my Dealer) Is MQA being pushed out too soon? Certainly when I next audition it ( and I will as I believe there's something special going on here ) it will be with my system and with my music.
 
So,I simply make the point ( to those who state it can't possibly work) try it !

 

[bigshot]

I have a funny story that might be pertinent...
 
I was in the market for speakers and I went to a stereo store that had a great selection in their audition room. The salesman was very nice and attentive. He operated the switcher for me, so I pointed at the speakers I wanted to hear and he directed the switcher to them. I noticed that whenever he switched to a particularly expensive brand, the sound would get fuller... not right away, but after a second or two. I thought it was odd that the sound was changing, so I kept my eye on him as he switched to them. He was facing me and turned to switch, then turned back to face me with his hands behind his back. I noticed a slight movement in his shoulder that looked odd. So I moved to the side and asked him to switch a couple times more. This time, I clearly saw his hands behind his back doing something with a dial on an amp behind him.
 
I asked him to kill the sound for a second. He turned around and turned the amp off that was right where his hands had been diddling a minute before. I politely said, "You know you are very helpful, but I'm never going to be able to figure out which speakers I want to buy if you keep adjusting the tone controls every time you switch." He turned beet red and glared at me with an expression of extreme hatred, and instantly changed into the least helpful salesman in the world. I sent him away and operated the switcher myself. When I decided which ones I wanted, he totally refused to acknowledge me or write me up, so I found the youngest kid salesman on the floor and gave him the credit for the commission.
 
High end audio salesmen have their own circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno... right in-between personal injury attorneys and used car salesmen.

 

[bigshot]

I heard from someone who looked up MQA's patent. Apparently most of it has to do with authorization keys and DRM. Not surprising, I guess. No one would buy into it for sound quality. That's already been done.