Misconception of "neutral / accurate"
Apr 29, 2012 at 10:57 AM Post #256 of 292
 
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For me, it's been the opposite, where IEM's tend to exhibit the same type of problems consistently.
 
I find the fact that IEM's introduce peak resonances from the ear canal quite problematic, and would often require a sharp, steep cut in the sibilance range (roughly 7KHz or so) to get rid of the resonance peak. Some tips can help, but not always, and not on every model. For example, the triple-flange silicon tip on the Westone 4 alleviates the problem, but not on the SE535, Westone 3, or the E4C.
 
I also find that most IEM's have rolled off treble, and need to be boosted in the highest frequencies to restore the air. 
 
I haven't tried the really expensive custom IEM's though. I don't use IEM's enough to justify the hefty price tag. I'm happy enough with the Westone 4 for now (though with surgical, parametric EQ'ing). 
 

 
From what I know these problems are eliminated by deep insertion(ER-4S/PT). 
 
@Maurico, I think for you its with headphone soundstage issues, I have that with my actives as well, or else unless your room is fuller treated, flat to within 1 or 2 db or so, I find the headphone just as useful a tool/enjoyment than active monitors.
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 1:05 PM Post #257 of 292
 
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I would highly recommend you attend some head-fi gatherings, such as the Can Jams or private ones held by members around here. It would be a great chance for you to listen to a wide variety of high-end gear, and it'll broaden your point of reference, as well as put the headphones you currently know into proper context. You can also start EQ'ing headphones like I instructed in that EQ thread. It won't cost you a dime, since you'd just be using a freeware EQ. All you have to do is to follow the steps I mentioned in that thread, and you'll see for yourself how much of a difference it makes. That is one really great way to educate yourself about audio, and it'll likely alter the way you think about audio and music in general.
Maybe one day in the future, after you've become more educated and experienced in audio, you'll look back on your younger self and chuckle, and you'll then remember those forum conversations you had with that guy on the head-fi forums about the benefits of neutral, accurate audio playback systems. Maybe you'll feel the urge to drop me a line and tell me how you've grown and changed in the last few years, and now you understand everything I talked about. Who knows? It could happen.

 
It very well could happen someday. I will definitely be trying out your EQ tips later on. I am very interested in them but I really hate the DAC in my laptop right now. Working on getting a cheap DAC that doesn't make everything sound thin and hums so loudly. I guess you are also in agreement that neutral gear in my price range so far isn't exactly good? I am getting the sense that cheap neutral gear isn't neutral enough or even good enough to make things sound good in their original form. Will definitely try to get into a headfi meet sometime. I just missed the one in Toronto and I haven't found any headfi meets in China at all.
 
 
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I'm referring to the expensive custom IEMs ~1000 USD or the few exceptional value ones that friends have referred me to. Really surprised what a value they are compared to headphones which are rapidly escalating in price. I guess my point is that you can actually find four to five (maybe even more) IEMs which are neutral and don't require EQ (or just very little.) This cannot be said of expensive headphones. T1, HD800, LCD2, LCD3, PS1000, ED10 are all way off the mark, especially the latter two.
 
$1000 IEM + cheap portable source exceeds most $3000-5000 headphone rigs.

 
 
Do you mean $1000 IEMs can exceed the quality or just the neutrality? Makes me think twice about IEMs. Aside from neutrality, is there any strengths and weaknesses when comparing the UERM to the JH13?
 
Funny I always thought headphones would be inherently better just because it has a more natural or speaker like quality of presentation compared to something producing sound right inside your ear. Think I will forgo all my other future purchases and put a pair of CIEMs at the top of my shopping list. Who knows, maybe I will sell my Grados to fund them! Do custom IEMs mold the entire piece to your ears or just the tips? Thinking if they had any resale value just in case I want to upgrade in the future.
 
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uhmm are there any neutral cans out there? That is the question. The most neutral cans Ive tried under $500 is the dt250-250 which is slightly more neutral than the hd600 but totally neutral? It simply doesn't exist. Sometimes is is hard to like almost neutral headphones with one sharp peak or something like that because that major peak becomes even more annoying on a neutralish can than it does on a headphone that has peaks and dips all over the place LOL

 
 
I see... so basically, it is a problem with the neutral gear in my price category not being good enough.
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 2:08 PM Post #258 of 292
 
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I see... so basically, it is a problem with the neutral gear in my price category not being good enough.

 
I simply meant that there are no truly neutral headphones period LOL I haven't heard lots of the flagships but if the he6 gives any indication of whats being sold at the higher end prices then I have a feeling that there are no neutral headphones in that category either :)
 
 
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 3:25 PM Post #259 of 292
 
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Do you mean $1000 IEMs can exceed the quality or just the neutrality? Makes me think twice about IEMs. Aside from neutrality, is there any strengths and weaknesses when comparing the UERM to the JH13?
 
Funny I always thought headphones would be inherently better just because it has a more natural or speaker like quality of presentation compared to something producing sound right inside your ear. Think I will forgo all my other future purchases and put a pair of CIEMs at the top of my shopping list. Who knows, maybe I will sell my Grados to fund them! Do custom IEMs mold the entire piece to your ears or just the tips? Thinking if they had any resale value just in case I want to upgrade in the future.

 
I mean that $1000 IEMs + a good DAP will both be more neutral and outperform many headphone rigs that I've heard which cost $3500-$5000. Of course some people prefer the feel of headphones and don't like sticking things deep inside their ears. Some IEMs actually have good head-stage. There are actually quite a few people I know who downsized dramatically and just gave up on dynamic headphones in favor of an IEM or two. I may be headed this way myself, only keeping my electrostat rig.
 
The UERM and JH13 are another topic. Both are excellent and I would easily take either of them. I picked up the UERMs because UE was running a 30% discount with free ear molds at the SF Bay Area meet. I met their head marketing honcho down here in Irvine and he said something to the effect of offering deals that people couldn't refuse at the meets. :)
 
The customs have little resale value. So you better make sure you like them first. The universal demo versions of the customs need to be shoved really hard and deep into your ears for them to sound similar to the actual customs.
 
 
 
I simply meant that there are no truly neutral headphones period LOL I haven't heard lots of the flagships but if the he6 gives any indication of whats being sold at the higher end prices then I have a feeling that there are no neutral headphones in that category either :)

 
x2. I have not heard any in-production headphones over $800 which I would consider even relatively neutral. (EDIT: STAX being the exception.)
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 4:12 PM Post #260 of 292
uhmm are there any neutral cans out there? That is the question. The most neutral cans Ive tried under $500 is the dt250-250 which is slightly more neutral than the hd600 but totally neutral? It simply doesn't exist. Sometimes is is hard to like almost neutral headphones with one sharp peak or something like that because that major peak becomes even more annoying on a neutralish can than it does on a headphone that has peaks and dips all over the place LOL


i never heard the 250's. now i'm curious, i want to try the hd600's but haven't came around a pair yet locally,cause i would rather try a pair first if possible before dishing out for one. but so far, most neutral headphones i heard under the 500 dollar range has to be the pioneer monitor 10's and 240DF's. i really enjoyed the monitor 10's and DF's for their clarity and extension at both ends while having a nice clean sounding midrange. both i found with a good source they both tried very hard to present music in an uncolored manner. kinda wish i kept my monitor 10's though now. were in very good condition and liked them a lot right next to the DF's when it came to dynamic headphones. still have my DF's though and one headphone i'll never get rid of but still interesting in trying others out of curiosity. i never used iem's before cause i don't think they would fit too well with me and i'm not too fond of sticking things in my ears really, but that's just me.
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 4:29 PM Post #262 of 292
 
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The customs have little resale value. So you better make sure you like them first. The universal demo versions of the customs need to be shoved really hard and deep into your ears for them to sound similar to the actual customs.


>:O 
 
 
I don't even know how to try these out in Toronto. Think I will read more reviews and just take a plunge. 
 
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 7:42 PM Post #263 of 292
RexAeterna, I had some pioneer monitor 10Rs and thought those were bright. I haven't tried the vintage Monitor 10 though. But yah, If you do try dt250s, make sure they are the 250 ohm version because the 80 is more bassy and have rolled off highs. I like the 80s too but they are much less neutral than the 250 ohm version. I am actually selling my 80 ohm version on another site.
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 10:19 PM Post #264 of 292
RexAeterna, I had some pioneer monitor 10Rs and thought those were bright. I haven't tried the vintage Monitor 10 though. But yah, If you do try dt250s, make sure they are the 250 ohm version because the 80 is more bassy and have rolled off highs. I like the 80s too but they are much less neutral than the 250 ohm version. I am actually selling my 80 ohm version on another site.


the 10R used different drivers compared to the original 10. the monitor 10's used a big 57mm mylar cone driver while the 10R was 50mm dome type(not sure on the material though). the monitor 10's are bit heavier due to better construction. monitor 10 was mostly metal,hard plastic and genuine leather while the parts on the 10R is bit cheaper and use simulated vinyl leather instead too. the monitor 10 had a good air response like the DF's so on certain tracks they did come out bit bright. the air response was flat comparable to the DF's going by memory but didn't have the upper treble peak of my sextetts does. i actually liked the monitor 10 more then the sextetts when i had them since they sounded closer to the DF's in comprehension. the monitor 10 was naturally balanced too with a 4-core heavy 1/4'' jack so they had really good clear stereo separation as well.


i'll make sure to keep look out for the 250ohm models. thanks for the advice.
 
Apr 29, 2012 at 10:37 PM Post #265 of 292
 
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I see... so basically, it is a problem with the neutral gear in my price category not being good enough.

 
Be careful about getting sucked into the upgrade treadmill of diminishing returns. I can almost hear the disappointment in your words. If you'll allow me to be philosophical for a moment (think of it as the zen of audio)...
 
See, the so-called happiness, or sonic bliss, or whatever, is a state of mind. You probably have heard before somewhere that our ability to be happy is based on our ability to enjoy what we already have, not pinning after what we haven't got. But at the same time, having a goal is a great motivator in our lives--it gives you a sense of purpose--a path to follow, which makes you feel less lost and have a stronger sense of identity.
 
What I think happens a lot in this type of community, is that people are too easily influenced by the constant upgrading excitement they see and hear all around them, getting caught up in the hype, and end up spending a lot of money they really don't have, or could have spent on other things that are more meaningful or useful. I know a guy who's living on welfare and is still constantly buying and selling headphones and amps. Every time he finds something he really enjoys, he'll eventually become extremely picky about it and then start to hate the very thing he initially loved. It's almost like a disease. He's on this perpetual upgrade treadmill, and I get tired just reading emails from him. I keep thinking, "Dude, you're on welfare, and your main concern in life is to constantly buy and sell and try different headphones and amps? Seriously? Talk about messed up priorities in life!" And because he can't afford the higher-end gears, he's basically trying out all the low to mid-end products in his search, expecting to find a magical one that will suddenly be perfect for him. This guy even used to own a Grace Audio headphone amp (when he had money) and didn't even know how to appreciate it--he said it was too revealing and detailed and made the music he listened to sound worse. Grace Audio amps are considered some of the most neutral and clean amps out there, and he couldn't even enjoy that. I even taught him how to EQ his headphones, and still, it was like this never-ending drama of perpetual malcontent. 
 
Don't become that guy.
 
Enjoy what is within your means, and learn about the hobby you're passionate about, so you can make informed, pragmatic decisions. If your hobby--the one that's supposed to bring you joy--is starting to make you feel bad, then something is wrong. The headphones in your price range are pretty good--even some of the most respected and famous mastering engineers use them in their studios to double-check what they're working on, such as the HD650 and HD600--both are quite popular. Some of them probably have moved on to higher-end headphones, but others have kept on using the HD6XX series. They may not find those headphones to be perfect, but they know how to assess their weaknesses and strengths, and know how to work with or around them. The point is, it's good enough for them. (Yes, they do also use high-end mastering monitors, but they are mastering engineers--that's their job. You don't make a living on audio, so it's a totally different context.)
 
Not everyone is supposed to own high-end gear, just like not everyone needs to strive to own a big mansion, a $200K sports car, a trophy wife, a private plane, etc. Learn to enjoy what you can afford, and that will bring you a lot more happiness than pinning after what you can't afford. 
 
More expensive isn't always better. If that was the case, then I wouldn't have sold my Stax rig and kept the much cheaper LCD-2. When the LCD-3 came out, I could have caught the fever and all of a sudden thought that my LCD-2 was no longer good enough, and jumped on the LCD-3 bandwagon. But because I know how to EQ the LCD-2 into the perfectly ideal headphone for my standard, I already know that the differences between my EQ'd LCD-2 and the LCD-3 will be minimal--to the point that it'll feel like I just threw that extra $1,000 down the drain. I'm sure there are other improvements besides the frequency response, but really, are they worth $1,000? I could buy a really nice professional grade camera lens with that money, or a really good computer display, or a nice guitar, or tons of killer new music or movies or video games, or take some classes in things I really want to learn, like martial arts, flying an airplane, or scuba diving. Why would I spend it on diminishing returns so minimal that it'll actually make me feel bad, or have to convince myself to justify somehow?
 
So my advice is simply this: assess the priorities in your life. What other things are you passionate about or enjoy? What else in your life needs upgrading and replacing? What financial obligations do you have to yourself and those around you? When you look at headphones from that perspective, all of a sudden, they take on a different meaning. 
 
 
 
Apr 30, 2012 at 12:55 AM Post #267 of 292
I've been saying, more or less, the same things elsewhere here.  On the High End channel, I was summarily told that I didn't belong there and that I didn't love music for holding what is essentially a common-sense position of avoiding the steep downward spiral of diminishing marginal returns. 
 
Oh yeah, another thing that no headphone can provide is that visceral (more physical than audible) impact of true deep bass.
 
Apr 30, 2012 at 1:10 AM Post #268 of 292
I think for a lot of people it becomes more about the experience of 'finding the sound' rather than the sound itself. Somewhat like people who'll go around the city to find a shop that is $2 cheaper than the one close by. For them its the pursuit that gives the thrill, not the purchase. 
 
Apr 30, 2012 at 1:13 AM Post #269 of 292
 
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I've been saying, more or less, the same things elsewhere here.  On the High End channel, I was summarily told that I didn't belong there and that I didn't love music for holding what is essentially a common-sense position of avoiding the steep downward spiral of diminishing marginal returns. 
 
Oh yeah, another thing that no headphone can provide is that visceral (more physical than audible) impact of true deep bass.

 
Diminishing returns is good... IF you know that the line of uprading you are going for just upgrades transparency, dynamics, etc... without adding any new baddies to the sound. Having an unlimited amount of cash will also help make spending for diminishing returns more legit :D
 
Apr 30, 2012 at 1:41 AM Post #270 of 292
 
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 Having an unlimited amount of cash will also help make spending for diminishing returns more legit :D

 
"Having an unlimited amount of cash while being willfully ignorant of one's own cognitive biases and of the limitations of human hearing and auditory memory imposed by evolution will also make spending for diminishing returns more legit".
 
There, I've fixed it for you.
 

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