Mad Lust Envy's Headphone Gaming Guide: (8/18/2022: iFi GO Blu Review Added)
Feb 4, 2020 at 6:06 AM Post #43,876 of 48,562
Sorry Deadchip to interject before you getting any replies...
I have a short time window to buy the m570 because it is on sale and I'm low on cash, my question is:
How do the Monolith M570 perform in terms of positional accuracy in competitive FPS gaming? Pinpointing enemy sounds across the map etc...
Do they offer vertical positioning as well? (Enemies on the upper or lower floor).
I already own the K702, HE-4XX, and AD900x, and all seem to lack vertical positioning in Battlefield 1, so wondering if this would be an upgrade.-Thank you
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 6:20 AM Post #43,877 of 48,562
Sorry Deadchip to interject before you getting any replies...
I have a short time window to buy the m570 because it is on sale and I'm low on cash, my question is:
How do the Monolith M570 perform in terms of positional accuracy in competitive FPS gaming? Pinpointing enemy sounds across the map etc...
Do they offer vertical positioning as well? (Enemies on the upper or lower floor).
I already own the K702, HE-4XX, and AD900x, and all seem to lack vertical positioning in Battlefield 1, so wondering if this would be an upgrade.-Thank you
I honestly don't think you should be expecting vertical positioning from ANY headphone unless you VSS you're using like game enabled Atmos (like Overwatch) has vertical sound cues. Remember, you're limited to 7.1 horizontally placed speakers being emulated down, so there is no such thing as height cues there. When people say things like like it's over their heads, it's usually like a helicopter nearing their imminent vicinity where sounds are placed inside your head (and sounds in the head will be above your ears in general). So it's more like visual information tricking our auditory senses.

There are headphones with tall soundstages, sure like the Drop Edition XX, but tall soundstages don't mean you're gonna get height cues.
 
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Feb 4, 2020 at 6:35 AM Post #43,878 of 48,562
What IS double amping?
Many people don’t realize this, but the Analog section of a Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) actually is an amplifier of sorts, with a fixed output setting. This is why, for example, upgrading the OpAmps in a Creative Sound Blaster X7 benefits the headphone output AND the RCA “Line Out” on the back.

So, technically, any time you connect a stand-alone amp to a stand-alone DAC, you’re “double amping,” and you’re only “hurting” the sound fidelity if your amp is noticeably worse than the Analog section of the DAC in some way... for example, if the amp has a potentiometer to control and lower the volume from max.

Why am I mentioning this?
If you’re using a DAC/amp with a digital volume control, such as the Sennheiser GSX1000, you can potentially connect a discrete amp to the headphone jack without degrading the fidelity to a noticeable extent, and enjoy the benefit of a surround DSP + a higher power amp + harder to drive headphone. I frequently used my GSX 1000 that way, and I would endorse it to others to try.
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 6:44 AM Post #43,879 of 48,562
Sorry Deadchip to interject before you getting any replies...
I have a short time window to buy the m570 because it is on sale and I'm low on cash, my question is:
How do the Monolith M570 perform in terms of positional accuracy in competitive FPS gaming? Pinpointing enemy sounds across the map etc...
Do they offer vertical positioning as well? (Enemies on the upper or lower floor).
I already own the K702, HE-4XX, and AD900x, and all seem to lack vertical positioning in Battlefield 1, so wondering if this would be an upgrade.-Thank you

Azimuth (height) direction for True 3D surround is game-dependent and AFAIK not that common now. 7.1 Surround is a (2D) ring of speakers placed around the seating position, so you would not get vertical positioning.

Not sure about battlefield 1 (never bought it personally), but in Battlefield 4 and 3 there was a “headphones” setting where the game would digitally process a binaural (true Headphone 3D, designed for the two headphone speakers/drivers that are set next to your ears) sound mix, which you could then output to any 2-channel DAC and amp. It was a bit generalized and did not place directions the most realistically, BUT the directions were usually fairly distinct and it had vertical positioning. See if the “headphones” setting (with everything else set to 2.0/Stereo) sounds 3D to you, and if you prefer that or the 7.1 processing of your existing DSP.
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 9:43 AM Post #43,880 of 48,562
Anybody else not getting email updates of watched threads anymore?

Me. Didn't realise there had been so many replies.

I went to my list of watched threads, ticked the email checkbox of the threads I want, and selected enable email notification in the dropdown menu at the bottom of the page, and finally hit go. Not sure if that has any effect (there's no indication of which threads will send emails after the page refreshes), will have to observe over the next few days.
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 9:52 AM Post #43,881 of 48,562
Me. Didn't realise there had been so many replies.

I went to my list of watched threads, ticked the email checkbox of the threads I want, and selected enable email notification in the dropdown menu at the bottom of the page, and finally hit go. Not sure if that has any effect (there's no indication of which threads will send emails after the page refreshes), will have to observe over the next few days.

Thanks, but they started to come back in yesterday night.
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 10:08 AM Post #43,882 of 48,562
Can't really figure out boom3D. The settings has seem to only work one at a time, and none give me the positional accuracy of rear cues...
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 10:59 AM Post #43,883 of 48,562
Like I said, the source audio device that Waves NX piggy backs on to needs to be multichannel capable. It must be capable of receiving and recognising a discrete multichannel surround signal. The Syba is just a stereo dac/amp so Waves was only being given a stereo source feed to virtualise so it's no wonder it wasn't that great for you. You were getting a virtualised stereo speaker setup rather than a virtual 7.1 surround setup. I repeat, you need a 5.1 or 7.1 capable audio device as source in the first instance. That could be your onboard soundchip if it's capable or an external dac/amp that has those capabilities like a Sound blaster G6.

Choose the audio source from the Waves Central app and then ensure that it's set to 5.1 or 7/1. Can't remember if you can do this straight from the Waves app, hence why I recommended doing it through the Windows sound manager just to be sure, see below screen shot. I can't find my headtracker at present and Waves NX isn't installed on my Surface anyway, it's on my gaming rig which isn't here, so I can't illustrate the process exactly but it shows audio device configuration via Windows OS including the access path.

Imagine that I have Waves NX installed and I have chosen the 7.1 capable SXFI AMP (SXFI turned off as in this hypothetical example - I am simply using it as a multichannel decoding capable dac/amp) as the audio source device for Waves to attach itself to and for output from there.
IIRC, the only difference between this screenshot and an actual Waves NX config would be that the virtual audio device "Waves NX" would be set as the windows default audio device rather than the SXFI here. If you are able to set the Waves NX audio device as 7.1 too either in the app or in the sound manager, then do so.
Stavros.png


nonsense. Sadly it's nothing more than arrogantly dismissive and closed minded ignorance from a bunch of people (including pro reviewers many of whom know far more about audio than I ever will and thus should know better) who don't understand the purpose of the head tracking implementation in the Mobius, Orbit S and Waves NX headtracker VSS solutions.

If Waves NX or another headtracking VSS solution doesn't work for an individual's HRTF and accordingly they don't rate it, that's absolutely fine; universally effective VSS is difficult if not impossible. But when they dismiss the principle of leveraging headtracking for VSS with "Meh, head tracking is a gimmick, it's only useful for VR!", it displays a fundamental ignorance as to how 3D audio is currently implemented in VR not to mention a complete lack of understanding in how the ears receive audio cues and how the brain processes them. Waves NX may not have worked for them but that'll be down to their own personal HRTF compatibility with the Waves algorithm, not because headtracking is a pointless gimmick. If anything, unbeknownst to them, the headtracking will have prevented their opinion /experience of Waves NX VSS from being even worse.

To be clear, there are two reasons and implementations for headtracking. One is VR and the other is VSS enhancement.

VR

VR revolves at least in part around physical movement. If not the entire body, then the upper body for motion control or al least the head for camera control as camera view tends to be tied to the physical movements of the user's head mounted display unit (HMU), i.e. the directions that the user is facing at a given time and the directions that they turn their heads towards instead of the manipulations of a mouse or a gamepad's analogue stick. VR audio tends to be pre-programmed into the game and handled by the CPU of the host system by itself or in conjunction with a dedicated dac/amp and audio processing chip in the HMU package. It is optimised to follow these head movements and keep the audio cues relative to the game environment and the user's head position. One of the major VR VSS engines used by game devs is actually a specialist VR version of Waves. In any case, whatever the VR audio engine, whoever it's from, such games don't typically require separate hardware to implement this experience. In fact, many VR headsets allow you to remove or bypass the included stock headphones and use your own stereo cans plugged to the headset or the PC if you like instead. Some VR headsets even forgo headphones altogether to keep costs down. Even in that latter instance, a separate audio device with its own headtracking would be unnecessary because a gyroscopic headtracker is already in the HMU itself. Without it, it wouldn't be able to track the VR world camera view to the user's head movements. The Mobius and Orbit S official documentation and online FAQs actually tell you to turn Waves VSS off for VR because Waves, Audeze and Kingston are fully aware of the aforementioned.


(As a side note, Mobius control software beta has trialled mapping gyroscopic head motion to the cans for quick snapping the game camera relative to the direction of the user's gaze while in a kind of pseudo VR hybrid implementation. However this beta came some time after launch and was never the original raison d'etre for head tracking in the Mobius.)


Head tracking for Non-VR VSS

The core purpose of Mobius's 3D audio is like any other VSS solution (and I don't mean just the nu-wave 3D audio VSS solutions that have taken off over the past couple of years), that is to mimic a true physical surround speaker setup as far as is possible using various audio acoustic trickery. Thing is though, headphones are stuck to your head/ears. Any head movements, how ever small naturally result in the actual physical source of audio, the headphone drivers, moving with you as they are clamped to the sides of your head.
On the one hand, this can be a source of immersion due to the focus and isolation, particularly in the case of closed-backs but on the other hand, it's not realistic. . . It's not representative of how we perceive and process audio cues from our surrounding environment.

You will no doubt have listened to a true surround speaker setup at some point in your life, if not in the home AV space then at the very least in the cinema. In such a setup, do the speakers adjust themselves in angle or position if the user moves their head, let alone their body position? No. When you set-up a surround system, you fix your channels and speakers, perhaps do some calibration for distances, time delay and other environmental characteristics to optimise the experience to an ideal listening position, a sweet spot and then you leave it like that until if and when you decide it needs to be recalibrated, moved or modified. But in the here and now of your listening session while playing game or watching a film, the setup is fixed. If you shift your position at all, whether just tilting your head to the side or a more substantial repositioning of your body such as leaning over onto the left armrest when you were previously leaning on the right, tilting a reclining chair back etc., the speaker setup remains fixed in the same position with time delay and whatever else set as per last calibration.


So even if a given VSS is otherwise amazing, even if it's an otherwise perfect replication of a true surround setup, the moment you introduce movement that physically moves the source of the sound, that is the headphone drivers, that simple fact in and as of itself prevents true replication of a multichannel speaker system. That's not to say that a multichannel spear system is a perfect replication of the way audio behaves in real-life either but when the positional cues of the audio environment come from a fixed sphere or soundstage that only changes per the instructions of the source content / audio mixing, while the listening ears are left free to regularly shift in position, however minimally / other wise imperceptibly, due to the head's micro-movements resulting from respiration, chewing / swallowing, miscellaneous small shifts in head position etc. for comfort, that is much closer and more realistic to not only a true multichannel speaker setup but also to how we perceive and process sounds in real life. Those micro-movements help our ears and brains better pinpoint location from direction and depth perception etc. A crude way of demonstrating this would be to try it out in a non-VR game with any VSS solution (doesn't need to be Waves), without headtracking. Find a fixed point audio cue (preferably a constant one or a repeating one) that's faint or slightly vague in terms of positioning. Cues made quiet because they are far away are ideal for this. Alternatively, you could pick a louder cue from a busy audio environments where there are other cues and general background noise competing for your attention and obscuring the soundscape and hampering precise imaging of that cue in question. Cues that are continuously sounding (e.g. a waterfall) or providing a repeated but vague cycle of samples somewhere off camera, out of sight, are best suited for our purposes. The cue should be offscreen and if possible one that you couldn't see in the first place.

Once you have chosen your sample cue and you can vaguely image it, put the controller down or disengage from the keyboard so that the game engine camera is still/stationary. Now try listening to it through headphones, can be in stereo or even a non-head tracking VSS solution. Move your head from side to side (if necessary hold your cans to your head if they are loose or in danger of falling off), back and forth and mix it up with a combination of both. For the most part, the cue in question won't image any better. It won't become any clearer, more solid or distinct because the real-life source of the sound, the drivers, are moving in tandem with your head. And here's the rub, if it does improve at all, that will be due to the headphones movements not exactly matching that of your head.

For the next part, keep the headphones on but this time, keep your head still and use the mouse or analogue stick to give the game camera a good shake. The audio cue will become a bit clearer and more solid because your attention is focused on following that source cue in motion even though your head / ears are relatively stationary and unmoving and also because the audio processing of the cue will subtly change its audio characteristics or properties in line with the change in position relative to your in-game avatar's stationary position in the game's audio environment.
It's the same with VSS + headtracking only in reverse. The virtual environment and cues are anchored in that instance, and instead of the game camera, it's your head that's moving and changing your relative position in relation to the cue. When the virtualised speaker setup has an anchor point versus a relatively stationary listening position, moving your head however little, will facilitate easier recognition and conscious and subconscious imaging of the cue in question. That's due to the natural audio 'decoding' capabilities of our ears and brains.

All that is why Mobius / Orbit and Waves NX has head tracking. It's why Redscape, offers their own usb headtracker and VSS software as a competitor of Waves. It is why the Smyth Realiser A16 comes bundled with a head tracker, as did its predecessor the years old A8, and why the Beyer Dynamic Headzone Pro from over a decade ago (one version of which was reviewed by MLE) back when VR had no presence in the home entertainment space, was marketed as the ultimate luxury headphone VSS dac/amp complete with ridiculous looking antenna emitter and headphone mounted aerial. None of these products were intended for VR, they were all intended for movies, music and conventional gaming in VSS.

I am blown away sir....speechless. Thank You for explaining all of this. Just wow.
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 11:29 AM Post #43,884 of 48,562
I am blown away sir....speechless. Thank You for explaining all of this. Just wow.
Btw, I don't know if its a freak coincidence, but that very same Pascal scene from the Tales of Graces cutscene was the same screen grab I used as an avatar for YEARS here and elsewhere. :yum:

Clipboard01.jpg
 
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Feb 4, 2020 at 12:22 PM Post #43,885 of 48,562
Btw, I don't know if its a freak coincidence, but that very same Pascal scene from the Tales of Graces cutscene was the same screen grab I used as an avatar for YEARS here and elsewhere. :yum:


The avatar was for sure coincidence but we go years back on this one haha. I used it when i registered in 2012 and posted in this thread. Asked for advice and i got this quote from You:

OMG you have a Pascal avatar (just noticed). You have all my internets. I LOVE Pascal. She is kind of like the second coming of Yuffie for me. XD

And by the sheer luck i got Your attention and detailed help which headphones to pick which ultimately resulted in DT 990 Edition that i just adore for today. I am actually thinking about an upgrade as they are slowly falling apart but i will just study the first page to see what i could pick. I reference Your guide from 8 years already whenever i want some info :D
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 12:38 PM Post #43,886 of 48,562
The avatar was for sure coincidence but we go years back on this one haha. I used it when i registered in 2012 and posted in this thread. Asked for advice and i got this quote from You:



And by the sheer luck i got Your attention and detailed help which headphones to pick which ultimately resulted in DT 990 Edition that i just adore for today. I am actually thinking about an upgrade as they are slowly falling apart but i will just study the first page to see what i could pick. I reference Your guide from 8 years already whenever i want some info :D
Oh snap, maybe seeing it made me look into it and ended up getting it, lol. So in fact I copied you! Hahaha.

I'm glad this guide helped you and whomever found a little bit of guidance. I know the headphone game ain't easy.

Luckily I still have the Edition XX that I reviewed, and its helped curbed most of my needs to move up or sideways. It really does basically everything I want. Have great linear bass presence, fantastic large and tall soundstage, and detailed sound without it being too much or too little on emphasis. I'd steer more people this way if it was always available. Definition could be a little sharper, but it's no biggie.
 
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Feb 4, 2020 at 4:12 PM Post #43,887 of 48,562
Oh snap, maybe seeing it made me look into it and ended up getting it, lol. So in fact I copied you! Hahaha.

I'm glad this guide helped you and whomever found a little bit of guidance. I know the headphone game ain't easy.

Luckily I still have the Edition XX that I reviewed, and its helped curbed most of my needs to move up or sideways. It really does basically everything I want. Have great linear bass presence, fantastic large and tall soundstage, and detailed sound without it being too much or too little on emphasis. I'd steer more people this way if it was always available. Definition could be a little sharper, but it's no biggie.

It is possible that You copied me then lol. Yes Your guide is just amazing, if someone wants he can find all the necessary info but the final decision is up to his ears. I hope images and overall layout will be fixed soon due to the forum changes, must be tough, hopefully they won't shift it back after You are done fixing it.

I am also thinking that maybe i should just try to replace earpads in my DT 990 and instead of upgrading to get an amp and see if that makes a difference (currently using XiFi Titanium HD which is a blast, but i want more. But that might do as a very good DAC). I am also thinking about stepping into Sennheiser land with HD600 or HD700 or try the Beyerdynamic Amiron Home (hopefully this is how it is spelled).
With Auzede Mobius beign shipped to me i could focus on movies and games on that one and get pair of cans dedicated to music (unless Audeze surprise me like You mentioned in the guide and they will be great for music).

We will see. In summary if not Your guide i would still be stuck with some low tier set and miss a lot and i bet i am not the only one.
 
Feb 4, 2020 at 5:18 PM Post #43,888 of 48,562
It is possible that You copied me then lol. Yes Your guide is just amazing, if someone wants he can find all the necessary info but the final decision is up to his ears. I hope images and overall layout will be fixed soon due to the forum changes, must be tough, hopefully they won't shift it back after You are done fixing it.

I am also thinking that maybe i should just try to replace earpads in my DT 990 and instead of upgrading to get an amp and see if that makes a difference (currently using XiFi Titanium HD which is a blast, but i want more. But that might do as a very good DAC). I am also thinking about stepping into Sennheiser land with HD600 or HD700 or try the Beyerdynamic Amiron Home (hopefully this is how it is spelled).
With Auzede Mobius beign shipped to me i could focus on movies and games on that one and get pair of cans dedicated to music (unless Audeze surprise me like You mentioned in the guide and they will be great for music).

We will see. In summary if not Your guide i would still be stuck with some low tier set and miss a lot and i bet i am not the only one.
Let us know how you like the Mobius I really want to get the Mobius, but because i switch from PC / Console i feel like it will be a waste of money and also currently using the dt 990's I am also contemplating getting the soundblaster x3 for pc and g3 for console
 
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Feb 4, 2020 at 5:43 PM Post #43,890 of 48,562
Hey SM / Guys...

I was hoping to report some good news on my attempt @ Hesuvi, but nothing but snags. No rush for this as I don't have time till the weekend to tackle this project.

My first snag was Hesuvi => Fulla2. When you click configure only "Stereo" option. Ok, no worries, I remember SM mentioning onboard soundcard w/optical so scratch Fulla2 and focus on optical Hugo2.

I never had a need for onboard soundcard since we use USB DAC/AMP, so I installed the ALC898 software. After M$ driver updates, all good. Optical into Hugo2 working.

Snag, the configure button is greyed out. I did not want to install VB cable because latency, but did anyways. VB cable downloaded and de-compressed. It's corrupt, doesn't install. I tried plugging HP in the back of the motherboard and that is fine, can configure 5.1 / 7.1. But I'm trying to get this going for optical.

I read something about a dummy 3.5mm, so I ordered a DIY 3.5mm to try.

I'll start researching some more, but any hints in the right direction would be great.
What you are sending to the Fulla / Hugo would be pre-virtualised surround in a stereo signal anyway so you don't really need to mandate optical in this instance unless you prefer it to USB for other reasons (such as USB giving you problems with noise etc.).

Fulla and Hugo are not multichannel capable so you can't configure them as multichannel. You can use an existing multichannel capable device for Hesuvi to piggy back your stereo-only output device onto.

VB cable is only for when there are no such multichannel proxy devices available. It is unnecessary and not recommended for when you have a multichannel capable device to hand as appears to be the case with your onboard soundchip.

Use the Audio Repeater KS method detailed in the Hesuvi setup help guide on the wiki. It's right above the VB cable setup instructions.

Let us know how you like the Mobius I really want to get the Mobius, but because i switch from PC / Console i feel like it will be a waste of money and also currently using the dt 990's I am also contemplating getting the soundblaster x3 for pc and g3 for console
Don't bother with the G3 if you want it for VSS from consoles. It can't receive multichannel from current consoles as they are limited to stereo output from USB and the G3's optical input appears to be for chat audio mixing purposes only.
For VSS on PlayStation, you want something that can receive a dolby digital 5.1 bitstream via optical to mix into VSS. That would be something like the Sound Blaster G6, Astro mixamp etc. Same for Xbox unless you prefer Atmos for headphone or Windows Sonic.

For Switch, you're out of luck as far as VSS through dedicated dac/amps go. You'd need an AV receiver or TV with its own built-in VSS for headphones or a device that could transcode linear PCM received via HDMI into Dolby Digital 5.1 for output via optical to a compatible gaming dac/amp.
 

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