M3 or Millet Hybrid?

[mrdon]

I am gearing up to build my first amp and I need some advice. I currently own a Pimeta but want to upgrade. My sources would be a Sony D-35 PCDP and a Pioneer dv-563a (CD/SACD/DVD-A). My phones are Grado SR-80's. The guiding principles would be best match for Grado's, ease of assembly, and of course the bottom line....cost of materials. After doing research, it's come down to the M3 or the Millet Hybrid. My head-fi DIY friends what's your advice? Should I go for the M3 or the Millet Hybrid?

 

[en480c4]

I've had the opportunity to listen to both with my 325i's.
The M^3 is a little faster with a little more detail. Not as detailed as my PPAv2, but definitely more-so than the memories I have of my short-lived time w/ a PIMETA. It will be a definite upgrade and works well with a number of cans.
The Millett Hybrid is warm and smooth. There's definitely some detail lost up high and down low, but it's a very enjoyable listening experience. This is the amp I prefer for using my Grados, and after some time last night, I'm warming to it with my 650's.
My understanding is the Millett can cost around $100, where the M^3 can cost 2-3 times that. I think the Millett has to be one of the best "bang for the buck" amps out there. If you ever feel your 80's are a little harsh, go with the Millett. If you like the sound of the 80's and want to spend more money, you really can't go wrong with the M^3.
HTH,
Ian

 

[rreynol]

I'd be willing to bet that no matter which you choose, you'll eventually build the other. Hanging around this place tends to do that to people.

 

[Jazper]

I've personally decided to stray away from valve amps as they're fragile and you can get a similar warm sound from specific opamps (eg the opa6x7 series), so my choice would be the M3.

But I must say the sight of a glowing valve gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

 

[dviswa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rreynol I'd be willing to bet that no matter which you choose, you'll eventually build the other. Hanging around this place tends to do that to people.

You can't be more right

I built a PPA V1. Now I am thinking of one of the 3:
Millett (participating in the GB)
Borbely Hybrid headphone amp
M3

A lot of what I hear are old recordings from as far back as 50s. The output from AV-710 seems a little harsh. I am looking for some smoother, forgiving warm sound.

Somebody here referred to Millett as dark. I have a Senn HD 650, a can considered dark. Makes me wonder if the combination is a good one. I would appreciate people's opinion. Actually this issue made me to start thinking of maybe Borbely hybrid. Unfortunately this amp does not get much air time here

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazper I've personally decided to stray away from valve amps as they're fragile and you can get a similar warm sound from specific opamps (eg the opa6x7 series), so my choice would be the M3.

I would have to disagree with you here, respectfullly of course. I've listened to my M3 with both the "stock" Ad8610s as well as the 637/627 combo and neither is remotely close to the warmth the Millett has. It's just a whole different animal. That's not to say that the Millett outperforms the M3 in any regard. The M3 is far and away the better all-arounder of the two as it can shine regardless of headphone. It should be since it basically costs around 3x as much as a MH. The Millett tends to add more to the experience when using brighter or more revealing cans like Grados or Etys. That's not to say that it sounds bad with Senns, as I don't think that at all, but it sounds fantastic with my Grado 225s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazper But I must say the sight of a glowing valve gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling inside.

Hehehehe, there's nothing quite like the warm glow of a tube to set the mood.

Nate

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Unfortunately this amp does not get much air time here __________________

mostly because no one has yet figured out how to make pc boards without being sued by Borbely Audio.

There is a serious lack of notice for any amp not directly connected to a group buy of "headfi approved" boards and in fact it goes as far as casting doubts on any design not "of" the headfi DIY forum as being flawed.
This is a shame mostly becasue many are culling some very good amps from contention simply due to being too cheap to pay for a board or kit not offered here directly from our members.Or doing it the old fashioned way and building a "one of" for personal use.a concept also not in fashion.

But give it time.I expect the "new and improved" or "based on" design any time now since there has been some renewed notice of this "classic" design.It will suck in direct comparison but will be cheap and have its own thread.......

BTW-If you are looking for tube "warmth" look elsewhere.The 6GM8 is anything but being very precise and articulate.If a tube could be considered to be dry to the point of being compared to SS this is it though that is in reality accuracy being heard.Not for everyone......

 

[dviswa]

Thanks a lot Rick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 It will suck in direct comparison but will be cheap and have its own thread.......

Not sure I follow

suck in comparison to what? The 3 amps mentioned above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 BTW-If you are looking for tube "warmth" look elsewhere.The 6GM8 is anything but being very precise and articulate.If a tube could be considered to be dry to the point of being compared to SS this is it though that is in reality accuracy being heard.Not for everyone......

Oh, boy, there goes the plans of making a Borbely down the drain.

You think I should stick with my original plan? Make the Millett hybrid

Regards,
Dinesh

 

[n_maher]

Dinesh,

Tread lightly, that's the only advice I can offer...

Nate

 

[rickcr42]

The 6GM8 tube is more of a "literal" tube and leans more towards accurate.Some call this sterile others call it getting what is on the disc off.
This tube will hum if the design not just right so using it in a fully engineereddesign is best or it can be very frustrating.
Using the pcb layout from the pdf file and the parts designators from the headwize library will make a working amp.

With the Borbely even the mosfet stage though fully Class-A leans also to accurate over euphonic coloring.Not and not etched like most opamp designs but not overly warm either.Smooth without glossing over flaws I guess may be a good way to put it.

Personally I like the sound with Grado cans and it competes dirctly with my own design.Both are good with neither bieing a clear winner in all areas.
i also like simple and circuits that have no more than what they need to get the job done.Better a SE,CCSed SE or even SEPP mosfet stage than the mutliple transistors inside a buffer.

you want to "warm it up" just use Riken resistors and choose "warm" capacitors.

The ultimate in simplicity ?

1:4 line tranformer providing ALL gain to a SEPP Mosfet follower power stage !

A single active device per polarity in the signal path from headphone amp input to headphone output.

KISS X10

 

[drewd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dviswa Oh, boy, there goes the plans of making a Borbely down the drain. You think I should stick with my original plan? Make the Millett hybrid

Well, some might say that I'm biased (OK, they're probably right

), but Pete's hybrid amp is a pretty cheap and easy way to ease into tubes without the fear of killing yourself with a gazillion volts of electricity. But you've already seen that it's not the only game in town.

Sijosae's hybrid amp is also very interesting because it explores the performance characteristics of the 6922 tube at low voltages. I've built a couple, one on some perfboard and one point to point and it sounds good with my headphones - like Pete Millett's design, the price belies its sonic performance and like the rest of Sijosae's stuff, it's tiny.

Rick is right, of course - you don't have to have a PCB to build an amplifier, although some perfboard can help those of us who are organizationally challenged.

-Drew

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Well, some might say that I'm biased (OK, they're probably right ), but Pete's hybrid amp is a pretty cheap and easy way to ease into tubes without the fear of killing yourself with a gazillion volts of electricity

the Borbely Hybrid is +/- 24VDC,not high voltage by any stretch

 

[drewd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 the Borbely Hybrid is +/- 24VDC,not high voltage by any stretch

I guess I wasn't clear - I wasn't talking about the Borbely amp, just tube amps in general.

-Drew

 

[MisterX]

Quote:

Oh, boy, there goes the plans of making a Borbely down the drain.

They do offer a kit.

http://www.borbelyaudio.com/kit_pricing.asp

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Not sure I follow suck in comparison to what?

don't know how I missed that

"suck" in direct comparison to any attempts at a "knockoff" or "improved" version to get around any intellectual property issues.

This is no "throw an output stage on a tube front end" circuit but a fully optimised design.Erno Borbely has been at this for a very long time and is one of the top guys in fet/mosfet/class-A design work on the planet.
Because fets and triodes have a lot in common operationally the hybrid and fet front end versions are virtually identical in every way including the topology and power supply needs.
I like to run jfets and mosfets a bit "hotter" personally and go 30vdc or better but I am just a hack,a hobbyist,to his true scientific design work.He knows where he will go,I "play" until i get what i am after sound wise.

E.B is "da masta"