[redshifter]

sad news: luna the orphaned orca was killed by a tugboat today.

efforts to reunite luna with her pod (family) were blocked by local native american tribes who claim luna was their dead chief.

the poor animal was caught between loneliness and local politics.

 

[Jahn]

That dog seems to be paying its last respects to the chief. Sad stuff.

 

[Cjattwood]

Man, that sucks...

 

[Oistrakh]

who is luna?

 

[redshifter]

here's the story on luna the orca:
http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stori....10d269e0.html

 

[plainsong]

Well certainly if their chief did come back as a whale, then he has the spirit and mind of one too, and would not want to be isolated and alone.

There's no real belief there. Just politics. Why try to save a species, or at least save one individual when you can have power and teach some other faction a lesson?

Every nation is different, but this isn't what I was raised to believe, and it's probably not what they were raised to believe either.

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong Well certainly if their chief did come back as a whale, then he has the spirit and mind of one too, and would not want to be isolated and alone. There's no real belief there. Just politics. Why try to save a species, or at least save one individual when you can have power and teach some other faction a lesson? Every nation is different, but this isn't what I was raised to believe, and it's probably not what they were raised to believe either.

well plainsong, who is really to say if it was their chief or not? the whale did seem to seek out humans over other whales, but that also may be because he was lost and confused.

this was a major ****-up on all sides. attempts to return luna to her pod where made without including the first nations ("where the hell are you taking our cheif!?"). there is also the political struggle over salmon fishing. add that to humans feeding luna, and the whale seeming to imprint on boats, you have a real problem in the making.

 

[TMHBAT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter who is really to say if it was their chief or not?

I don't know if the lack of any response to this question indicates a consensus that it is too stupid to deserve one or a timid concession that indeed no one is to say. But I for one am "really to say" that Luna the living orca was not Tsux'iit the dead human, and if someone claims that Luna should not have been helped because perhaps he was Tsux'iit, that person is simply forfeiting the right to be taken seriously.

By the way, I am also "really to say" that whales who surface for air while being hunted are not offering themselves to the hunters.

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMHBAT But I for one am "really to say" that Luna the living orca was not Tsux'iit the dead human, and if someone claims that Luna should not have been helped because perhaps he was Tsux'iit, that person is simply forfeiting the right to be taken seriously.

you sound pretty sure of yourself. where is your proof? and where the HELL did i say luna should not have been helped?

billions of people around the world belive in reincarnation. so they're all wrong and you're right? man you're arrogant.

 

[blessingx]

Redshifter I have to say some of the worst arrogance in the world is done in the name of faith based religious ideas. If those can't be questioned (and for some reason the worlds moderates have made it nearly impossible for this one area only), and proof requested, I don't see how humans and the planet are ever going to progress.

One dead killer whale isn't going to keep me up at night, but if one group believes Luna is their leader and must be protected and another group believes Lunda is the devil incarnate and must be destroyed... what position are we going to take? It's a very slippery slope, if all any ideas covered in the protective covering of "belief", can't be questioned and if necessary, regulated to the intellectual/legal sidelines. We move people and ideas to the sideline all the time (how many university presidents have publicly denied the Holocaust or landing on the moon for instance?), we're just so unwilling to do it on this one subject of faith.

But we've entered the political/religious no-no of Head-Fi so I'll stop.

Besides in the end it was likely commerce that did Luna in.

Anyway this is a sad story.

 

[TMHBAT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter you sound pretty sure of yourself. where is your proof? and where the HELL did i say luna should not have been helped? billions of people around the world belive in reincarnation. so they're all wrong and you're right? man you're arrogant.

Actually, I didn't say that you said Luna shouldn't be helped. I said "someone," because many people did say that, if not out of acceptance of the tribe's claims, then out of some misguided "respect" for them.

Your accusation of arrogance is exactly what I'm protesting against here. The idea that it is "arrogant" to point out that something is false (and indeed, incoherent) just because lots of people believe it or say they do is a grotesque perversion of the respect you would urge. To respect someone means, in part, to submit to contraints of reason and evidence when asking that one's own claims be respected. The arrogance is theirs, not mine.

On the general question of "reincarnation" (and inter-species reincarnation, no less!): this seems somewhat more plausible, I suppose, to those who accept "incarnation" in the first place, but even aside from that it doesn't stand the slimmest chance of being true. (And aside, I might add, from the question of how this tribe could possibly know that Luna was Tsux'iit.) If you or anyone else would like some references to accessible works explaining some of the relevant advances over the past few centuries in our understanding of the mind, I am happy to supply them.

 

[redshifter]

blessingx,
my point was, who can really say if luna WAS or WAS NOT a reincarnation of a dead human.

to say you know for sure one way or the other without proof is to me stupid.

i am not saying this is anything one can prove. so my point is, we don't know. anything else is a guess or worse, assumtion.

questions of blind faith or idiotic acts done in the name of religion are outside the scope of this subject, and not appropriate for head-fi. my feeling is because TMHBAT is from vancouver, (s)he may already have deep feelings about luna that were projected onto me, for simply bringing up the subject. same thing happened when i tried to open a discussion about boards of canada--a lot of words were put in my mouth there too--which is one thing that really triggers me.

 

[TMHBAT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshifter i am not saying this is anything one can prove. so my point is, we don't know. anything else is a guess or worse, assumtion.

I respectfully suggest that you simply have not thought carefully about this statement. I don't think it could be any reasonable person's considered view that if we cannot be absolutely sure, beyond any doubt, about something, then all we're left with is "who's to say?". (Allowing, for the sake of argument, that we can't be absolutely sure that reincarnation is false.)

 

[SennFan]

Put the politicians in one boat and the Native Americans in the other.

Place Luna equidistant between the two.

If in fact our anthropomorphic friend Luna is the reincarnation of Chief Ambrose, then he would surely swim to his tribe.

 

[redshifter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMHBAT I respectfully suggest that you simply have not thought carefully about this statement. I don't think it could be any reasonable person's considered view that if we cannot be absolutely sure, beyond any doubt, about something, then all we're left with is "who's to say?". (Allowing, for the sake of argument, that we can't be absolutely sure that reincarnation is false.)

until i see some compelling evidence either way about a spiritual question like this, then yes, who can say one side is valid and the other not, which is what you are implying (that reincarnation is not possible). in case you forgot, here is what you said "But I for one am "really to say" that Luna the living orca was not Tsux'iit the dead human".

you are flat out saying luna was not the reincarnated cheif.

where is your proof? you have none.