Lossless Formats and Choosing a new DAP...

[oak3x]

As I am researching to purchase a second DAP, I notice different players support a variety of various formats. With the desire to convert my music (from CD's) in a Lossless Format, I am feeling limited...

While FLAC seems to be the Lossless Format of choice, very few players support this application.

Two Questions:

1. If I wanted to purchase a player such as iRiver Clix 2 or Creative Zen, what would be the preferred method of loading my CD's in Lossless onto these players? Neither of these players support FLAC...

2. Creative Zen (example) - this player supports WAV & WMA amongst other others... If I wanted to load my CD's on lossless onto this DAP, how would you suggest?

Could I RIP in FLAC, then Convert in WAV...then load onto the player? Would this work / be recommended?

Since I am not savvy in working with file formats, could someone please explain the theory of converting onto these players in the most simple of ways.


Thanks

 

[rxc]

If the player does not support flac your best bet is high bit rate MP3s.

You can rip directly to .wav but these files are huge (1:1 copies of the CD). So this isn't recommended unless you have lots of space to use.

Have you looked into Cowon/Iaudio products. They do support flac.

 

[oak3x]

Using MP3 in a straight conversion isn't lossless (as far as I know)

How about...Using the Creative Zen Player as an example...couldn't I:

A. Rip in FLAC
B. Convert in MP3
C. (then) Load on the Creative Zen Player

-Would this approach work...or am I far off in theory?

-Would my final transfer onto the Creative Zen Player be in Lossless or not?

Thanks

 

[warrior05]

Let's see if I can help here...

When you are ripping CDs, even if it is for the sake of putting them on a DAP and not backing up, I recommend ripping it to FLAC. You'll a have a lossless copy of your CDs complete with metatag info. From there, you can use something like dbPoweramp to convert your FLAC files to whatever format you want (NOTE: you convert creating new files and keep the FLAC files).

You are certainly correct that there are not a lot of DAPs that support FLAC. Rockbox'd players all support FLAC. Natively - Cowon's players support FLAC as does one of my fav DAPS, the Trekstor Vibez (which also supports gapless playback).

Apple's iPods offer their own version of lossless support - ALAC. This is what I use since I have an iMod. A drawback though is you have to use iTunes to convert to ALAC. dbPoweramp has an ALAC encoder but when playing converted files on the iPod whole songs get skipped. Yes, you can Rockbox an iPod but battery runtimes are greatly reduced.

Certainly, by far, the most supported format is MP3. Now, there is an ongoing debate about being able to hear any audible differences between something encoded in MP3 at, say, 320kbps versus lossless which I won't get into here. But you can use dbPoweramp to convert your FLAC files to MP3 and then you'll be able to load that to virtually any DAP.

My suggestion is to take some songs of various genres that you know very well and compare them lossless vs MP3. If you can't hear a difference or find the MP3 acceptable, then go with MP3 so you won't be limited to your choices of DAPs.

Hope that helps.

 

[warrior05]

One other thing:

Yes, you are correct that MP3 is not lossless. It is a lossy format where you do lose data which is why the resulting files sizes are so relatively small. The idea, basically, is that the conversion is dropping inaudible or barely audible data. The higher the bitrate the better the audio quality. You will definitely hear a difference if something is sampled at 192 or lower. But at 320 is usually where the heated arguments ensue.

 

[RubenNYC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrior05 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My suggestion is to take some songs of various genres that you know very well and compare them lossless vs MP3. If you can't hear a difference or find the MP3 acceptable, then go with MP3 so you won't be limited to your choices of DAPs. Hope that helps.

Sage advice. Personally, I can't tell the difference. There's only one way to determine whether or not you do.

 

[oak3x]

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrior05 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's see if I can help here... When you are ripping CDs, even if it is for the sake of putting them on a DAP and not backing up, I recommend ripping it to FLAC. You'll a have a lossless copy of your CDs complete with metatag info. From there, you can use something like dbPoweramp to convert your FLAC files to whatever format you want (NOTE: you convert creating new files and keep the FLAC files). You are certainly correct that there are not a lot of DAPs that support FLAC. Rockbox'd players all support FLAC. Natively - Cowon's players support FLAC as does one of my fav DAPS, the Trekstor Vibez (which also supports gapless playback). Apple's iPods offer their own version of lossless support - ALAC. This is what I use since I have an iMod. A drawback though is you have to use iTunes to convert to ALAC. dbPoweramp has an ALAC encoder but when playing converted files on the iPod whole songs get skipped. Yes, you can Rockbox an iPod but battery runtimes are greatly reduced. Certainly, by far, the most supported format is MP3. Now, there is an ongoing debate about being able to hear any audible differences between something encoded in MP3 at, say, 320kbps versus lossless which I won't get into here. But you can use dbPoweramp to convert your FLAC files to MP3 and then you'll be able to load that to virtually any DAP. My suggestion is to take some songs of various genres that you know very well and compare them lossless vs MP3. If you can't hear a difference or find the MP3 acceptable, then go with MP3 so you won't be limited to your choices of DAPs. Hope that helps.

Thank you Very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, if I RIP in FLAC, then Convert in MP3...my final loading onto the DAP "will not" be in Lossless?

Would it be any better to: RIP in FLAC, Convert in WAV...onto my DAP?

Thanks again!

 

[warrior05]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oak3x /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you Very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, if I RIP in FLAC, then Convert in MP3...my final loading onto the DAP "will not" be in Lossless? Would it be any better to: RIP in FLAC, Convert in WAV...onto my DAP? Thanks again!

Correct, in regards to your first question.

Since WAV is more widely supported and is lossless you can do this as well. Keep in mind though, WAV files don't carry metatags so you'll lose genre/album/artist/song/etc. info. Also, WAV files are not compressed at all. So if a CD is 600mb in total, that's how big your WAV files will add up to from the resulting rip. That's why FLAC is so handy since it just about halves the size but maintains all the data. Think of it as an audio ZIP'ed file.

 

[oak3x]

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrior05 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Correct, in regards to your first question. Since WAV is more widely supported and is lossless you can do this as well. Keep in mind though, WAV files don't carry metatags so you'll lose genre/album/artist/song/etc. info. Also, WAV files are not compressed at all. So if a CD is 600mb in total, that's how big your WAV files will add up to from the resulting rip. That's why FLAC is so handy since it just about halves the size but maintains all the data. Think of it as an audio ZIP'ed file.

Fully understood now...thank you again!!!

 

[Murugesh]

Just a thought...why don't you consider iAudio player, which supports FLAC format?

 

[pianomav]

I believe the Cowon D2 supports flac natively.. you can try that plus it has good SQ also.

 

[Aevum]

all rips ripp directly to full PCM audio, which on windows systems is stored as wav, convering wav to flac and then to mp3, means that theres 3 stages where data can be lost, if you rip directly to PCM and store it as wav, which is normal for windows systems and then convert it directly to 320KbPS mp3, thats basicly the best quality you can get out of mp3.

 

[Caribou679]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pianomav /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe the Cowon D2 supports flac natively.. you can try that plus it has good SQ also.

My only bug with that is the SIZE of the Flac file. It's too big (300-400mb) on a 2 or 4 gb player. Even with the D2 extension SD , HDSC card of 8gb.

I personally prefer using Ogg at level 8( 256Kb)(about 100 mb) on my players.

I recently bought a used ipod 5th gen 30gb for the storage and to try it out,and if the test is not conclusive, either I rockbox it or give it to my daughter.

 

[Icarium]

Well guy's asking for a lossless format. Lossless format is going to result in big files since its well... lossless. And if you are going for support there is really only 3 formats. FLAC (Several non ipods support this), ALAC (Ipods support this) and WAV (Most everything supports this). Some random players support their company's own flavor of lossless. Why FLAC/ALAC/Other stuff over WAV? Generally they are a bit smaller and more efficiently sized. So pick what players you want to use and just go whatever that one supports ;p