[Eric Scheffel]

Hi there,

I am currently using the following portable set up to listen to various genres of music. I use the Fiio X3-3 as a cheap digital source, the iBasso "Bushmaster" D14 as my DAC+AMP(that Sabre sound!) and an Oppo PM3 as my headphones. The combination works like a charm, especially for Jazz music with creamy female vocals (think Norah Jones).

However, because the PM3s have a bit of a reputation for a "sedate" upper frequency range, sometimes I am missing out in terms of more exciting treble and a wider sound stage. This is particularly apparent when listening to classical music, such as one of my favorite symphonies, Bruckner's 7th. I generally agree that the PM3s are great for long listening sessions as they never exhaust, but also never fully "excite" either.

I am therefore looking to spend anywhere between 300-1000 dollars on open-back "for-at-home" headphones, which will give me a completely different listening experience from the Oppo PM3 and work better in the upper range (less rolled off). I will probably continue to drive them with the D14 Bushmaster, so while impedance can be high, it should probably not be too high.

I have been casting my eye to candidates such as the Beyerdynamic 1990Pro, the Shure 1840, Hifiman HE-560 maybe one of the Grados and a couple of other. I know in the suggested price range I could have also added one of the Sennheisers, such as 600,650 or even 800s. But the Sennheisers appear to have a reputation for a more dark/warm tonality, and I am looking for something more analytical. Finally, I do not care for the 3D-wing headband of the more recent Audiotechnicas and I am not a big fan of the general build quality of the AKGs, hence my decision not to consider these(I do find the ATs interesting though...). I am sensing that the "old" Beyerdynamic 990s could be a real steal at the moment, given that they are almost half the price of the 1990s and appear to fit my description, although some may argue that they could be too bright.

What I care about is a pair of headphones which are:
1) Only for listening at home in arm chair when I am alone
2) Wide soundstage with clear and analytical separation
3) Open-back and may leak sound as hell, I don't care
4) A high-quality construction, i.e. headphones which will be a "keeper" for a long time
5) An analytical and high resolution listening experience mostly for classical music
6) The low end or bass is perfectly okay to be on the weak side
7) Generally a listening experience which will be "orthogonal" to my Oppo PM3

Thanks!

 

[YJX94]

You've pretty much described the HD 800/HD 800 S, only some Sennheisers are described as dark or warm but I wouldn't say the HD 800 is. You can't get a more analytical or wide soundstage headphone than the HD 800 without venturing into the world of Electrostats.

HD 800 is probably the king of soundstage and analytical prowess out of any Dynamic or Planar headphone, it's literally a tool for your ears.

 

[Me x3]

HD800 (silver) or K812 should work very well, both are very analytical headphones with great soundstage.
Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd Gen) is still an analytical headphone, but it's not as extreme as K812 or HD800.

 

[YJX94]

HD800 (silver) or K812 should work very well, both are very analytical headphones with great soundstage.
Beyerdynamic T1 (2nd Gen) is still an analytical headphone, but it's not as extreme as K812 or HD800.

I noticed you have a K812 and a K712 too, how would you say they compare to each other? I've heard many people say the K812 is not even that good and it's a disappointment and the K712 is currently the best headphone AKG makes.

I'm just wondering because K712 is my daily driver for everything and when the day comes to upgrade I'm not sure what a sensible upgrade from it would be.

 

[Me x3]

K812 is quite hard to describe.

Compared to the K712, the K812 is considerably more analytical, less relaxed, a little bit less thick and more ethereal sounding.
Treble is slightly brighter and more extended, upper midrange is overall flatter and more forward. (In the 3-4kHz region where K712 is softened, K812 is forward)
K812 sounds more open and airier, with an even more cohesive soundstage and better sense of transparency.
Fit is extremely good in my experience, improved headband, light clamp, deep cups, secure seal.

I have my K712 in very high regard, it's an awsome headphone and probably the best price/performance reference headphone I've ever tried.
I could live perfectly happy having only the K712.

K812 is a different beast. It's more unforgiving and more capable as well. It's a headphone for certain recordings and certain moments.
K712 is most of the times right next to me, while K812 is in its box waiting for the right time.

You said the K712 is your daily driver, it's a very good and capable daily driver (let's say an Audi S5). K812 might be something like an Aventador LP700-4.
On the right track, it can be outstanding, but not much of a daily driver unless you only drive on perfect roads and race tracks.

Back from the car analogy, K812 works best with acoustic/naturally recorded music. Play studio tricked recordings and K812 will frown at you, and make you frown as well.

Next to the HD800, the K812 has more of a tool-like tuning in my perspective.
HD800 is distant, cool and very microdetailed. K812 is immediate and more unforgiving in the treble, but at the same time it's slightly warmer and portrays a more natural tonality across the bass and midrange. In the same way HD800 is awsome at microdetail/texture and soundstage size, K812 is impressive at macrodetail/intrument separation and imaging.

I'm quite fortunate to being able to own these headphones side by side, if you ask me which one has wowed me more times, it's the K812 hands down.

 

[bixby]

I have heard a few of the models you mentioned. The Shures sound like garbage to me. The 560s are nice and have that typical HiFi Man treble peak. You may wish to audition some fo the Beyer T-series.

 

[YJX94]

K812 is quite hard to describe.

Compared to the K712, the K812 is considerably more analytical, less relaxed, a little bit less thick and more ethereal sounding.
Treble is slightly brighter and more extended, upper midrange is overall flatter and more forward. (In the 3-4kHz region where K712 is softened, K812 is forward)
K812 sounds more open and airier, with an even more cohesive soundstage and better sense of transparency.
Fit is extremely good in my experience, improved headband, light clamp, deep cups, secure seal.

I have my K712 in very high regard, it's an awsome headphone and probably the best price/performance reference headphone I've ever tried.
I could live perfectly happy having only the K712.

K812 is a different beast. It's more unforgiving and more capable as well. It's a headphone for certain recordings and certain moments.
K712 is most of the times right next to me, while K812 is in its box waiting for the right time.

You said the K712 is your daily driver, it's a very good and capable daily driver (let's say an Audi S5). K812 might be something like an Aventador LP700-4.
On the right track, it can be outstanding, but not much of a daily driver unless you only drive on perfect roads and race tracks.

Back from the car analogy, K812 works best with acoustic/naturally recorded music. Play studio tricked recordings and K812 will frown at you, and make you frown as well.

Next to the HD800, the K812 has more of a tool-like tuning in my perspective.
HD800 is distant, cool and very microdetailed. K812 is immediate and more unforgiving in the treble, but at the same time it's slightly warmer and portrays a more natural tonality across the bass and midrange. In the same way HD800 is awsome at microdetail/texture and soundstage size, K812 is impressive at macrodetail/intrument separation and imaging.

I'm quite fortunate to being able to own these headphones side by side, if you ask me which one has wowed me more times, it's the K812 hands down.

So basically the K812 is AKG's answer to the HD 800, it's just that the initial pricing from AKG probably didn't sit well with lot's of people. It is cool though how AKG includes a headphone stand with the K812.

You are right to hold the K712 in high regard, as do I since it's an absolutely awesome headphone for the price. I was lucky enough to get it brand new here in the UK for £169 which is equivalent to $223 as a raw conversion so minus tax and etc. It may seem a lot in $ but in £ it's an absolute steal because in most places it's upwards of £300 which equals $400+.

It's incredibly comfortable and sounds fantastic, wonderful solid low end response, slightly distant mids but I honestly don't care, amazing treble and detail and clarity, analytical prowess which can be compared to the HD 800 and maybe even some Stax, wide but realistic and very accurate soundstage. It's just an excellent all-rounder and again an absolute steal at the price I got it for.

So if I was to ever upgrade from a K712 Pro, what do you think would be a worthy and sensible upgrade from it?

 

[buke9]

The 812’s are sure a different beast as I think they’re tonality is very close to the K872’s I have. They are much more mid centric than the HD-800’s that I also have and it is hard to pick between the two for me . With some the 800’s rule for others I dig the 872’s. Open versus closed is a big difference sometimes but not always as it tends to depend on the music involved as I also love my Ether-C’s for some stuff also it totally depends on mood. If you want a totally different experience then I would suggest the Koss ESP-950’s electrostats they used to be a cheap way to get into electrostats as I paid $560 a year and a half ago and I think they are back up to almost $1000 now. They are very good for detail and soundstage.

 

[YJX94]

The 812’s are sure a different beast as I think they’re tonality is very close to the K872’s I have. They are much more mid centric than the HD-800’s that I also have and it is hard to pick between the two for me . With some the 800’s rule for others I dig the 872’s. Open versus closed is a big difference sometimes but not always as it tends to depend on the music involved as I also love my Ether-C’s for some stuff also it totally depends on mood. If you want a totally different experience then I would suggest the Koss ESP-950’s electrostats they used to be a cheap way to get into electrostats as I paid $560 a year and a half ago and I think they are back up to almost $1000 now. They are very good for detail and soundstage.

You are right that the Koss is definitely one of the cheaper electrostats available today but what about Dynamic/Planar cans? what Dynamic or Planar do you think is a worthy upgrade from a K712 under $1000? used is fine.

 

[buke9]

The HD-800’s would be a upgrade and the HE-650’s also. The amp would be a factor also.

 

[YJX94]

The HD-800’s would be a upgrade and the HE-650’s also. The amp would be a factor also.

HE-650s? do you mean HD 650s or is there a HE-650 from Hifiman that I'm unaware of?

 

[Oscar-HiFi]

DT1990 Pro would defintiely suit your needs, they are superb headphones and have a small but devote following here. You can change the sound slightly with the 2 pairs of earpads included

 

[Me x3]

So if I was to ever upgrade from a K712 Pro, what do you think would be a worthy and sensible upgrade from it?

It really depends on where you want to go.

Tesla T1.2 is probably the closest to K712 in terms of being a neutralish reference dynamic headphone that's also fun and natural sounding with a relatively wide range of recordings.
With the Tesla T1.2 you get tighter bass, similarly soft but flatter/more neutral upper midrange, and magic treble.

K812 and HD800 are more clinical and more pretentious than both K712 and T1.2

 

[YJX94]

It really depends on where you want to go.

Tesla T1.2 is probably the closest to K712 in terms of being a neutralish reference dynamic headphone that's also fun and natural sounding with a relatively wide range of recordings.
With the Tesla T1.2 you get tighter bass, similarly soft but flatter/more neutral upper midrange, and magic treble.

K812 and HD800 are more clinical and more pretentious than both K712 and T1.2

Hmm I see. Well if I was to upgrade I would want something that has a ridiculous soundstage as well as crazy good imaging and analytical properties so I'd probably go for the HD 800/HD 800 S.

 

[Me x3]

Hmm I see. Well if I was to upgrade I would want something that has a ridiculous soundstage as well as crazy good imaging and analytical properties so I'd probably go for the HD 800/HD 800 S.

Keep in mind the slightly wider/deeper soundstage on HD800 comes with a slight distantness to its sound that pulls against its analytical capabilities.
It would be unfair to say that HD800's sound is big and diffuse, but there's some of that when compared side by side with different yet similarly capable headphones.
K812's sound is more raw, more upfront, more of 'placing your ear at the recording's microphones' so it's probably the most analytical between the two.

What I'm saying is:
"ridiculous soundstage + crazy good imaging + crazy analytical properties"

You might not be able to maximize them all in one headphone, so at the end of the day you'll have to weight their attributes and character acording to your preferences.
The extremely good and very expensive Utopia for instance will give you tons of performance, but no ridiculous soundstage.

Anyway, these are all very good headphones and considering you enjoy your similarly tuned K712, best chances are you'll be happy with any of them if you ever decide to upgrade.
All of them HD800/HD800S/K812/T1.1/T1.2/Utopia are a tad better than K712 here and there.