Looking for double blind test event about phase inversion
Aug 28, 2016 at 9:22 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 28

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I discovered that some audiophiles can't identify whether system has inverted phase configuration or not. I wonder if there's anyone holding DBT event about phase inversion before. I tried searching in Google found no result.
 
Aug 28, 2016 at 11:49 AM Post #2 of 28
is there a need for an actual DBT? I imagine most people can create such files themselves and use foobar's ABX.
 
Aug 28, 2016 at 12:06 PM Post #3 of 28
I think it'd be interesting to know if most audiophiles who participated in the test can listen to audio and point whether it's inverted phase or not. We often use DBT to measure equipment's effectiveness, right? How about finding out whether inverting phase will affect audio performance with the same system? I wonder why I can't find any of them.
 
Aug 28, 2016 at 12:41 PM Post #4 of 28
Hydrogen Audio has a few threads about this including one where at least one "objectivist" has confirmed a verifiable ability to detect phase inversion, but as already mentioned you can do phase inversion in Audacity and test yourself
 
Aug 28, 2016 at 12:44 PM Post #5 of 28
What I want to see is the result of group testing about phase inversion. I'd like to see various results of them so please let me know if you know any links to share.
 
Regards,
Keetakawee
 
Aug 28, 2016 at 3:14 PM Post #6 of 28
Clark Johnson wrote a little red book called "the Wood Effect".  I forget why that title.  It investigates absolute phase.  I believe he wrote a paper to the JAES about it in the early 1960's.  I also seem to recall he did or was involved with those who did blind testing on the matter.  In the right conditions with the right source material it is an audible effect.
 
As for most music, one can never say what is correct.  With mixing of multiple channels sometimes they are phase inverted in some tracks and not in others.  You have confounding effects of multiway speakers that have some drivers inverted vs others so and so forth.  Making it less than a big factor nearly all the time with music in your home.   With simple recording technique and single driver playback (say Quads, some Tannoys etc. and of course most headphones) it probably is audible.  Which means more than 99% of recorded music probably would be too confused to know if one phase is right vs another being wrong.
 
Edited to add:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue1/cjwoodeffect.htm
 
Reading about his using a clipped sine wave to make it obvious reminded me.  I sometimes have used a heavily asymmetrical sine wave to test system polarity.  You can put a multi-meter set to DC (yes DC) across your speaker terminals.  If you read a small varying positive voltage your system is in correct polarity.  If you read a negative voltage your system is in negative polarity.  Some complex systems now make it less than simple to determine such a simple thing.
 
Aug 29, 2016 at 11:21 AM Post #7 of 28
I take it we're talking about phase inversion of the entire system (both speakers), rather than a having one speaker 180deg out of phase relative to the other speaker?
 
G
 
Aug 29, 2016 at 2:29 PM Post #8 of 28
That's correct. I'm talking about inverted phase of both channels which can happen from a few circumstances like different Hot/Cold XLR, some RCAs using inverted signal as output, swapped speakers cables, etc. It'd be interesting to see DBT of such events and see if most audiophiles can detect that.
 
Aug 30, 2016 at 3:43 AM Post #9 of 28
  I discovered that some audiophiles can't identify whether system has inverted phase configuration or not. I wonder if there's anyone holding DBT event about phase inversion before. I tried searching in Google found no result.

 
 
  That's correct. I'm talking about inverted phase of both channels which can happen from a few circumstances like different Hot/Cold XLR, some RCAs using inverted signal as output, swapped speakers cables, etc. It'd be interesting to see DBT of such events and see if most audiophiles can detect that.

What you're actually referring to is the concept of "absolute polarity".  The ability to detect a difference in signal polarity is determined by the degree of asymmetry in the signal.  For most musical signals the waveform is fairly symmetrical about the zero baseline.  However, certain voices are highly asymmetrical, and when polarity is reversed they do sound very different.  The trouble would be determining which is correct.  The idea of positive air pressure producing positive voltage throughout the system and positive air pressure from the speaker is a nice thought, but in reality, polarity is random.  There are many chances for inversion along the production path.  And while asymmetrical voices do sound different when polarity is inverted, it is not possible to determine which is "correct".  The problem becomes one of OCD. 
 
This issue comes up in AM radio broadcasting where modulation limits are also asymmetrical, with 100% negative being the max permitted (and distortion results beyond that quickly), but 125% positive is permissible in the USA.  Broadcast processors have used some form of phase/polarity optimization for many, many decades to ensure their their highest peaks are always positive.
 
There are three basic techniques.  One is to detect asymmetry and hard-switch its polarity for maximum positive, and it turns out, that switch action is very audible on asymmetrical male voices (confirming the polarity audibility argument), though effective. The second much more graceful technique is to use the output of a polarity detector to sweep the cutoff frequency of a single stage 180 degree all-pass filter through the passband.  This is essentially a soft polarity flipper, and is nearly inaudible in it's action.  The third is to use a fixed all-pass phase shift network to "scramble" phase over the entire spectrum, which removes the asymmetry completely, eliminating the issue.  That, too, has an audible effect if you were to switch it in and out, but once in place, its presence is quickly accommodated, and it isn't noticed....much.  It's a very old technique, and there was a product marketed over 40 years ago that did it completely passively called the Kahn Symetra-Peak.  So far, the second method is the best, and still used in AM processors today.
 
So, yes, polarity is audible given the right asymmetrical signal, of which certain male voices is the most common. Not all voices, male or female, are highly asymmetrical, though.   Strings and woodwinds are very symmetrical, some brass no as much, but music, in general, is pretty symmetrical in nature.  Percussion is asymmetrical, but also very transient and thus more difficult to differentiate polarity with.
 
When a signal is symmetrical, inverting polarity doesn't change the aural stimulus at all, so it's not heard.  There are degrees of asymmetry, and thus degrees of polarity audibility. 
 
Doing an ABX test to confirm polarity audibility would really be a test of how audible a polarity inversion is on a specific signal, not audibility of inversion in general.  It wouldn't take an audiophile, when it's audible, anyone can hear it.
 
Oct 17, 2016 at 12:32 AM Post #10 of 28
I tried phase inversion feature in preamp with audiophiles. Some can hear the changes, some can't. What's the meaning of this?
 
Regards,
Keetakawee
 
Oct 17, 2016 at 1:36 AM Post #11 of 28
  I tried phase inversion feature in preamp with audiophiles. Some can hear the changes, some can't. What's the meaning of this?
 
Regards,
Keetakawee
 

Quote:
   
The ability to detect a difference in signal polarity is determined by the degree of asymmetry in the signal.  For most musical signals the waveform is fairly symmetrical about the zero baseline.  However, certain voices are highly asymmetrical, and when polarity is reversed they do sound very different. 

 
Oct 17, 2016 at 2:47 AM Post #12 of 28
The point is they do sound very different yet a few audiophiles couldn't notice the difference, especially in headphone systems.
 
Regards,
Keetakawee
 
Oct 17, 2016 at 3:32 AM Post #13 of 28
  The point is they do sound very different yet a few audiophiles couldn't notice the difference, especially in headphone systems.
 
Regards,
Keetakawee

That's a very strange point to take away from this.  What sounds different?  What are the specific signals?  I've explained exactly why and under what circumstances phase inversion would sound different, but that applies to anyone, not just audiophiles.  The fact that headphones are used (or not) really won't matter much. 
 
Oct 17, 2016 at 3:39 AM Post #14 of 28
I understand that. The point if even they sound so different, some people still can't take notice in that difference. Maybe you can conduct double blind test of headphone's phase inversion and see if you'll get 100% positive test.
 
Regards,
Keetakawee
 
Oct 17, 2016 at 4:32 AM Post #15 of 28
 Maybe you can conduct double blind test of headphone's phase inversion and see if you'll get 100% positive test.
 
Regards,
Keetakawee

Perhaps you still don't understand:  With some signals you WILL get 100% in a DBT, with others you won't, not even 50%, and others in between.  It isn't a question of if a phase inversion can be detected, it's  question of what signals are used.  Speakers or headphones don't matter.  
 
And no, I don't need to do the DBT...done, proven, even historically. 
 

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