[memepool]

Match your cart to your tonearm. All the carts mentioned above are capable of sounding great if you mount them on a suitable mass tonearm on a good turntable.

The Shure will suit a low to medium mass arm while most of the AT's are also in this mold but others like the AT440MLA are now happier with medium to higher mass. All moving coils today are prefer medium to high mass and the Denon's are known to work particularly well with the stock tonearms on '70s Technics decks.

I'm running in a Denon 103 at the moment and while it may appear to measure flat on the accompanying graph it doesn't sound flat at all to my ear. But like any cart it will sound different on different tonearms due to the resonances inherent in the design. Moreover the better the quality of tonearm the more it will be able to realise it's full potential.

 

[searchenabler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Match your cart to your tonearm. All the carts mentioned above are capable of sounding great if you mount them on a suitable mass tonearm on a good turntable. The Shure will suit a low to medium mass arm while most of the AT's are also in this mold but others like the AT440MLA are now happier with medium to higher mass. All moving coils today are prefer medium to high mass and the Denon's are known to work particularly well with the stock tonearms on '70s Technics decks. I'm running in a Denon 103 at the moment and while it may appear to measure flat on the accompanying graph it doesn't sound flat at all to my ear. But like any cart it will sound different on different tonearms due to the resonances inherent in the design. Moreover the better the quality of tonearm the more it will be able to realise it's full potential.

Have you ever measured/analyzed the harmonic distortion from that 103? I wonder what kind of coloration, if any, that spherical stylus is producing(and possibly altering sound character). Have you actually measured the 103 to see it's response matches Denon's factory spec graph?

-Chris

 

[Stephen Murphy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have you ever measured/analyzed the harmonic distortion from that 103? I wonder what kind of coloration, if any, that spherical stylus is producing(and possibly altering sound character). Have you actually measured the 103 to see it's response matches Denon's factory spec graph? -Chris

John Ellison over at Vinyl Asylum has done a lot of such testing. Here is a copy of one of his graphs of the Denon 103R. When asked about the peak in the top end he said: Just off hand, I think the peak is due to the cantilever flexing or bending resonance, which is below 20-kHz because of the excessive effective mass of the cantilever moving system. It is obvious that any electrical resonance would be out in the stratosphere for such a low-output moving coil.

 

[searchenabler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Murphy /img/forum/go_quote.gif John Ellison over at Vinyl Asylum has done a lot of such testing. Here is a copy of one of his graphs of the Denon 103R. When asked about the peak in the top end he said: Just off hand, I think the peak is due to the cantilever flexing or bending resonance, which is below 20-kHz because of the excessive effective mass of the cantilever moving system. It is obvious that any electrical resonance would be out in the stratosphere for such a low-output moving coil.

Thank you so much! That tells me a lot. I would still love to see the distortion analysis. Does he do this?

The amplitude response tells me this is not neutral cartridge. Note the gradual increase in high frequency output from 80Hz to 5000Hz. This may appear small, but in fact, with just a 0.5dB(and this is about 1db) change over such a broad band, will lead to a definite character change. But... if it was the only issue, it would still have a very neutral response with some 'thinned' character. The real issue is after 5kHz, it is up to an additional 1-2dB by 10kHz, with a peak of 3-4dB by 15kHz. These broad bands of effect will be readily audible.

I am very interesting in distortion performance because I am curious of the archaic spherical stylus used.

Is their a condensed data base of his measurements?

Thanks.

-Chris

EDIT: I found his Audioasylum gallery of various graphs.

 

[Stephen Murphy]

Here is a link to all of Mr. Elison's images:

Elison Image Files

There are harmonic distortion graphs for other carts but I did not see one for his 103R.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif The amplitude response tells me this is not neutral cartridge. Note the gradual increase in high frequency output from 80Hz to 5000Hz. This may appear small, but in fact, with just a 0.5dB(and this is about 1db) change over such a broad band, will lead to a definite character change. But... if it was the only issue, it would still have a very neutral response with some 'thinned' character. The real issue is after 5kHz, it is up to an additional 1-2dB by 10kHz, with a peak of 3-4dB by 15kHz. These broad bands of effect will be readily audible.

There are several different versions of the 103 still in production and more still only available for silly prices on ebay.
The R version above is fairly recent and is substantially different to the classic version mainly in this top end lift which is pretty common amongst modern carts. I've never measured the 103 myself but I have plenty of measuements from magazines which I can dig out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am very interesting in distortion performance because I am curious of the archaic spherical stylus used.

Vintage spherical stylus tips are sometimes quite useful for playing older recordings from the 1950s which often have slightly wider grooves. Plus they require less exact alignment obviously.
They can also often play records perfectly which have had their walls gouged by badly set up or worn elipticals.

 

[Stephen Murphy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif The R version above is fairly recent and is substantially different to the classic version mainly in this top end lift which is pretty common amongst modern carts. I've never measured the 103 myself but I have plenty of measuements from magazines which I can dig out.

Looking at Mr. Elison's frequencey response graphs for both the 103R and the AT-OC9ML/II (a highly regarded, newer design mc cart) show them to have a very similar response, alright:

AT-OC9ML/II Graph
Denon 103R Graph

 

[searchenabler]

Late last night I did a full amplitude and distortion analysis of one of the Denon DL-110 cartridges that I have on hand. I now will measure the phono pre-amp I used to see what it's transfer function looks like so I can make a correction file and supply accurate graphs.

If the pre-amp is not causing the boost(Music Hall MMF Phono-Pack), then my DL-110 sample looks very close to the 103R and AT-0C9ML/II, except that instead of that bump occuring over 10khz on those, the DL-110 sample has a smoother, broader span to reach this peak level.

-Chris

 

[searchenabler]

I was thinking backwards when I said the cartridge had a rising response; in fact, it's the opposite. I was just remembering the spectrograph numbers that I was recording at the time I posted last, recording raw data and it completey escaped my mind that the relationship is inverse since I was recording negative numbers relative to 0dBfs. Silly me.

Anyways, I have carefully analyzed the recording chain, pre-amp and the DL-110 cartridge sample 1. I plan to provide another sample later. I already have a 2nd sample on hand.

Here is the graphed data. Please note it may appear to have large frequency response shifts because unlike most FR graphs, I choose to stretch a total of 10dB across the entire graph, where people normally stretch 25-40dB of increments across the same size graph. I do this in order to show maximum level of accuracy/detail. Please keep this in mind.

It's obvious why this cartridge sounds so neutral to me now. It has a gradual drop off on the top end. Especially if your speakers are very flat in response, or headphones for that matter, such a drop off like this has been documented by most of the leading speaker reproduction researchers such as Toole and others, that finds that the end listener response is almost always found to be perceived as more neutral due to recording and production habits of the source material. This treble roll off is almost exactly the response plotted by Toole as that preferred by listeners on average. The bass end is slightly rising. Starting around 200Hz and ending a 100Hz, there is a 1dB rise. From 100Hz to 20Hz, there is 1 more total dB rise. If one likes a strong bass, this is certainly a fitting cartridge. It's not a lot of extra bass - not enough to give any sort of loose or resonant effect. But it is enough to give a perceived change of impact.

I did extensive distortion analysis, manually, from 20hz-20khz, up the 5th order. I am providing 2nd and 3rd order data here, as after 3rd order, it was overall so low it was not even worth taking the time to graph it. This cartridge, using 1khz as the distortion reference point as Elison did, reveals this cartridge to have extreme low distortion, comparable to the lowest distortion examples I found on the Elison image files database.

According to the perceptual tests of which I have read where THD in this steady decreasing harmonic structure was true(every following harmonic is lower considerably then the pre-ceding one), the most sensative listeners in that condition needed at least 2 percent THD for it just become audible. The THD in the main band is about 0.7 percent, with it rising only into the mid to upper treble and into the deepest bass; both of which bands can tolerate far more distortion before it becomes audible. My conclusion is that distortion on this cartridge is inaudible, or very barely audible on the threshold of inaudibility, with inaudibility being more likely.

I would prefer that the cartridge was absolutely flat from one end to the other; at least it errors on the side of a perceived nuetral effect/balance.

I also analyzed IM distortion and other characteristics. I could find nothing to suggest this cartridge has any audible coloration besides the frequency response shown, and it happens, this response will be more likely perceived as neutral/natural as compared to a true flat response cartridge.

-Chris

 

[Stephen Murphy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by searchenabler /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also analyzed IM distortion and other characteristics. I could find nothing to suggest this cartridge has any audible coloration besides the frequency response shown, and it happens, this response will be more likely perceived as neutral/natural as compared to a true flat response cartridge. -Chris

Thanks for posting this! It is really interesting to see how different carts compare in actual testing and how they are perceived in listening. I quite agree with your take on how this cart might be percieved by the listener. It's graph looks a lot like that of a Shure cart with a falling top end. In actual practice, however, Shure carts come off sounding very balanced and neutral. This is because a lot of source material is cut with a lot of top end boost anyway, and Shures make those records sound smooth and very enjoyable.

I have read about people looking for an absolutely flat cart and ending up with the Dynavector Karat (review). People discover however, that such a flat cart can sometimes sound very cold and uninvolving, bordering on "thin". I would guess the rest of the sound chain and speakers have a lot to do with how we perceive the final result.

 

[searchenabler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Murphy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for posting this! It is really interesting to see how different carts compare in actual testing and how they are perceived in listening. I quite agree with your take on how this cart might be percieved by the listener. It's graph looks a lot like that of a Shure cart with a falling top end. In actual practice, however, Shure carts come off sounding very balanced and neutral. This is because a lot of source material is cut with a lot of top end boost anyway, and Shures make those records sound smooth and very enjoyable. I have read about people looking for an absolutely flat cart and ending up with the Dynavector Karat (review). People discover however, that such a flat cart can sometimes sound very cold and uninvolving, bordering on "thin". I would guess the rest of the sound chain and speakers have a lot to do with how we perceive the final result.

I saw some response for one of the more well regarded carts, and I see what you mean. But the Denon if you note, has a slight boost starting at 200Hz, and 1db up by 100Hz. Then another 1db between 100Hz and 20Hz. This would make voices and other lower mid stuff sound more 'substantial' and wit more perceived 'weight'. Since most speakers I find have insufficient baffle step compensation, this slight boost in this range will tend to make most speaker sound yet even more natural/neutral in this regard. The Shur carts did not seem to have this boost, and in fact, a slight reduction through this lower range, with abouit a 0.5-1dB total loss.

The DL-110 really does seem to have a unique frequency curve. It is really interesting that it seems to be compensated to make a more neutral response in most speaker + recording combinations........

Combined with the very low distortion(as compared to other cart distortion profiles I could find) and great build quality it seems to have(superior diamond compare to most anything remotely around the price point - and hand made/QCed in Japan - the product is way under priced if you ask me; they could get so much more for it considering), this is a mostly unusual bargain. I have a speaker system that a most unusual potential for realistic (keep in mind that I have been working with the critical perceptual research in application to this field for years - and using controlled evaluations in my own capacities as well - very time consuming things that require a lot of dedication - it would bore the heck out of most so called DIYers; I take this hobby to a more serious level than normal. I have spent at least several hundreds of hours researching/experimenting/reading up on just the perceptual issues of how human hearing interacts with specific measured parameters in order to give myself a true foundation on which to stand/base speaker designs.) sound playback, and some of my better records absolutely like real life(transporting you to the original event in space effect, imaging and tonal detail/realism)with this DL-110; the only departure from such being the occasional pop/tick reminding you that it's just a record....

-Chris