Light Harmonic Geek Wave
Feb 28, 2016 at 1:16 PM Post #3,106 of 5,933
Well, I'm one of those with lots money invested, lots of gear owed by them...I guess we'll find out in time what the true situation is (people have been receiving the Vi DAC, solid state version as of late, means to me still not done yet, but, we'll see...)
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 2:01 PM Post #3,107 of 5,933
Well, I'm one of those with lots money invested, lots of gear owed by them...I guess we'll find out in time what the true situation is (people have been receiving the Vi DAC, solid state version as of late, means to me still not done yet, but, we'll see...)

I received my Pulse Blue, yesterday. The WAVE-Source, might be slow to the starting line, but "Pulse Analog," products are in que to begin production.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 2:46 PM Post #3,108 of 5,933
Yeah. It is definitely nice to see these various products all finally coming to fruition.

And I think that every product has been better for the wait.

I really like the look of the vi... Almost enough to wish I had gotten one. The only thing that really held me back was that the tube stage was not in front of the headphones.

And I think that the current infinity was worth the wait. It actually feels like a $1k DAC. Before it felt like a 250 DAC. And the addition of the upgradeable display firmware is important too.

Similarly, the wave has evolved into a much better product than it was initially.

I wish them all the best in getting it out.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 4:15 PM Post #3,109 of 5,933
Yeah. It is definitely nice to see these various products all finally coming to fruition.

And I think that every product has been better for the wait.

I really like the look of the vi... Almost enough to wish I had gotten one. The only thing that really held me back was that the tube stage was not in front of the headphones.

And I think that the current infinity was worth the wait. It actually feels like a $1k DAC. Before it felt like a 250 DAC. And the addition of the upgradeable display firmware is important too.

Similarly, the wave has evolved into a much better product than it was initially.

I wish them all the best in getting it out.

How, in what sense? 
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 4:52 PM Post #3,110 of 5,933
Waiting for the Vi Tube Special Edition, that Larry blesses and tweaks...it's conceived as more for a rack stereo system, though it should be fine for headphones as well...doors look pretty cool, no? And the swappable boards are interesting. Some great ideas, poor public relations management and time management.
 
Feb 28, 2016 at 7:46 PM Post #3,111 of 5,933
Blast from the past! (7/7/14) - this is one of MANY examples of how convoluted this process has been. This "Geek WAVE" update includes Geek Station, the IEM, and the Geek Source ...). The update lists "FREE Upgrades" for when the "Geek Wave" campaign reaches $888,888 and $999,999. It all sounds good BUT several "upgrades" are only relevant to  Wave investors who are also investing in IEM, Station, and Source. To add to the complications you've got "Geek Force Voting" mentioned, etc.. That's just one update (out of so many).
 

You’ve Received a Campaign Update!

 
Hello Kirk,
Here’s an update for you from the ‘Geek Wave: It's Not a Next-gen iPod. It's a No-compromise Portable Music Player’ team:

1 new Announcement:

 

Hey Geek Wave Backers! 

Somewhere between the fireworks, BBQ's and other Independence Day revelries, the team got together and outlined a list of the most requested perks for Geek Wave & Geek Source. 

So, after countless hours of work and more than a few hot dogs (tofu dogs for Gavin), we're pleased to release our latest batch of perks and updated stretch goals.

$888,888 Stretch Goal

In lieu of an $888,888 stretch goal, we've decided to release TWO versions of the much anticipated Geek Wave docking station. One, which we're calling Geek Station and the other we're calling Geek Station X.

Geek Station 

Geek Wave + Geek Station turns your home stereo system into an ULTRA HD music playback system. Here's a snapshot of what Geek Station will feature.

Smart Healthy Charging - The ability to charge your Geek Wave's battery more efficiently while also prolonging it's lifespan.

Ultra Quiet Power Circuit - Provides sub 5.5uVrms noise 5V power supply to charge your Geek Wave. Play and charge your Geek Wave at the same time without audio performance degradation.

No Y Cable. No Problem - With Geek Station you'll have a pair of high quality pro-grade Neutrik RCA audio output connectors allowing for a direct connection to a home stereo system.

Geek Wave DAC Functionality - With an integrated 5-pin micro USB interface, direct connecting your Geek Wave to your Geek Source gets even easier.

Geek Station X

Every feature of Geek Station + Balanced (XLR) Outputs 

If you're using a Geek Wave XD128 or X128 this docking station features a pair of single-ended pro-grade Neutrik RCA outputs and a pair of pro-grade Neutrik balanced XLR audio outputs. You asked for the best balanced audio, we provided the solution.

$999,999 Stretch Goal 

Can we make it happen? You bet! Here's what's in store. 

1. Gain Switch - Every Geek Wave backer that selected the IEM perk will have their Geek Wave outfitted with a gain switch! 

2. Geek Wave XD128 - Upgrade to a dedicated single-ended and balanced connector. The Geek Force will vote on the best connector.

3. DAD Perk Upgrade- Larry decided to bias the gain stage amp to Class A and with slightly more energy spent here, you'll get THE BEST sound without crossover distortion.

4. Geek Source High Speed - We're adding a gigabit Ethernet port into your Geek Source! Use this port to connect with your local network and your music library.  No wireless setup, no package drop outs. 

Did we mention that these are all FREE upgrades once we hit $999,999? That's right. FREE!



 
Feb 28, 2016 at 9:48 PM Post #3,112 of 5,933
Not sure if I should laugh or cry about these old updates and all their promises. Stuff like "2. Geek Wave XD128 - Upgrade to a dedicated single-ended and balanced connector. The Geek Force will vote on the best connector." reminds me that so often votes and polls were announced but never really followed up upon. Or a question was asked in the old forum and then we never heard about the result and decision. 
 
A few more months and then this chapter will hopefully be finished....
 
Feb 29, 2016 at 2:08 AM Post #3,115 of 5,933
I agree the Wave evolved into something which was much more sophisticated than it was originally intended to be, and the intention which drove it was good as well.

It will certainly be viewed positively by those whom are willing and able to wait for the delay in delivery.

But that's the problem. Some people aren't willing and able to wait. Most people in fact, I'd wager. Where LHL went awry was assuming that people only cared about the quality of the finished product. That it would speak for itself and be the sole qualifier of a successful campaign.

But they got it wrong. They failed to understand the audiophile market and the state of mind of a large part of their customer base.

This is an industry where, whether right or wrong, 'turnover' rates are high. I myself have used many different DAPs over the past 1.5 years since the Wave campaign kicked off. It's a hobby where people like to try things. To experiment. To do A/B comparisons. It's certainly irrational and unhealthy from a financial standpoint, but it's just the way it is. Such is the nature of the hobby. And portable source components in general are where the 'turnover' rates are highest in recent times. You can see the classic HD6X0 headphone series continuing on strongly even a decade after it first became popular. With amps it's not quite long, but certainly still considerably longer than DAPs. The AK100II which was all the rage about a year ago has become outdated by now. Better options for less money. More premium options available as well. The market has never been more saturated, and consequently the depreciation in price is also steep. The Wave looked fantastic a year and a half back. But look at the hottest new DAP right now. The Onkyo DP-X1. Tons of features comparable to the Wave. And anyone can get a set pretty easily for a cost much less than a fully loaded Wave. With almost immediate effect.

The Pulse campaigns were poorly handled but the Wave will eventually be the catastrophe that will seal the proverbial nail in the coffin for LHL. I'm sorry but there's just no other way about it, unless they can deliver a DAP which is so far ahead in sound quality that no alternatives that sound as good surface for the next 2 years.

If that is not impossible enough, given the trajectory of the portable source market, consider UI, reliability, customer service. Larry has already publicly confirmed that the UI is holding the whole project up. The reliability of the Pulse doesn't bode well for the Wave campaign either. Granted, the crowdfunding and open aspect of the Pulse campaign probably saw reliability issues becoming more publicized than usual, but if you look carefully there are plenty of indicators that reliability, crowdfunding or not, is indeed a huge problem for LHL. And when you throw in the incredible number of iterations of the Wave, its almost a dead certainty that QC will become very difficult. And the same goes for customer service.

Think about it. Every single additional day the Wave is delayed by, a new product hits the market. One which is better than the previous. And each day, the standards by which the Wave will be judged upon rises even higher.

The fact of the matter is that 'great sounding' is no longer good enough. People often have short memories especially when it comes to unpleasant experiences. LHL built up expectations, generated huge amounts of hype, and underdelivered spectacularly. People remember the false promises. The empty perks. The double standards. They will not forget. Their empty hands and the hole in their wallet.

I know this is incredibly harsh but we don't need the Wave project to come to fruition to tell that it already qualifies as an utter failure.
 
Feb 29, 2016 at 2:18 AM Post #3,116 of 5,933
And about the 'but the normal development cycle of a product is usually....'

No, just no.

You were crowdfunded. You get to skip a huge part of the project development cycle. No pitching required, just cash up front from the onset.

Even if you disregard that, people are willing to cut some slack -- for some time, and without BS involved.

How many times do you want to give stupid ETA dates that are clearly poorly thought out and clearly have no commitment to fulfill? How much marketing BS can people take before they see through the BS?

Schiit Audio messed up with the Asgard and they came clean after some time. Cavalli Audio had delays but they were forthright and earnest in their communication. The 1964 Adel came up with unexpected snags but they managed to (for the most part) retain the faith which backers had placed on them.

The average audiophile is a demanding one whom is also fair. Chances will always be given, until they become abused.
 
Feb 29, 2016 at 6:44 AM Post #3,117 of 5,933
I was involved in the Liquid Carbon campaign...it was "only" an amp, design was complete. It technically wasn't "crowdfunded", though you did have to prepay, the distinction being in name only to me (the only real difference I see is not using the crowdfunding sites). There were delays, there were and are problems with a significant number of units (at least, that's the impression you get on the threads). People were absolutely ballistic on the sites for a while, as I recall, not so different than on the LH Labs threads. They did manage the public relations aspect much better though, all seems mostly forgiven at this point. A great DAP will go a long way to quieting things down.
 
Feb 29, 2016 at 7:23 AM Post #3,118 of 5,933
I was involved in the Liquid Carbon campaign...it was "only" an amp, design was complete. It technically wasn't "crowdfunded", though you did have to prepay, the distinction being in name only to me (the only real difference I see is not using the crowdfunding sites). There were delays, there were and are problems with a significant number of units (at least, that's the impression you get on the threads). People were absolutely ballistic on the sites for a while, as I recall, not so different than on the LH Labs threads. They did manage the public relations aspect much better though, all seems mostly forgiven at this point. A great DAP will go a long way to quieting things down.


I don't think that's right. There were delays but it seems to me that they were all properly explained and unlike LHL, Cavalli actually only had one product being in development the whole time. Reasons were given for the delay but Cavalli did not announce a funding campaign for another product halfway through the dev cycle.

Problems existed.with the amp for a couple of people but i do not recall Cavalli insisting that people paid for shipping back to Cavalli.

Cavalli also didn't announce that they would provide transferable warranties and then change their minds and retract their offer. Instead to make up for initial problems they announce they would offer LIFETIME warranties for first time.owners and also would consider transfers of warranties if you contact Cavalli first before selling the amp.

In contrast think the issue people have had with LHL is not just the delays but the marketing, the attitude of their reps, their outright lies in respect of their deadlines, the lack of proper or coherent updates, the progressive change in attitude and policy to be less.and less consumer friendly, the very shady way they deleted posts and banned peoplenfrom their forums, all of which just leaves a seriously bad taste for backers.

Unlike LHL Cavalli actually offered refunds until very very late ( a few weeks before shipping).

In contrast every LHL move seems to be deliberately targetted at insulting our collective memories or intelligence.
 
Feb 29, 2016 at 7:35 AM Post #3,119 of 5,933
Crowdfunding brings certain liberties. Being misleading (or even worse dishonest) is not one of them.

In my opinion this is no longer about crowdfunding vs non-crowdfunding. It's universal business ethics.

I followed the LC thread quite closely as well. The key difference was that Alex, his knowledge/anticipation of consumer response notwithstanding, laid everything out in the open, plain and simple. There was bound to be people going apeschiit at the chassis build (if I recall that was the central problem), but Cavalli Audio emerged with its integrity intact at the end of it all. And because of that, the great product at the end of it all was able to speak for itself, and all the decisions Alex took along the way.

I think we all know that everything is basically the complete opposite for LHL. Which is why no product, short of a miraculous one, will save them. Even amongst the local audiophiles whom I've conversed with off the forum and who have a stake in the Wave, virtually all of us are too put off to even give the Wave a chance when we receive it (Most of us agree that there will be at most 5-6 iterations of the Wave and some backers will be forced to conform to a variant that they did not pledge for).
 
Feb 29, 2016 at 7:48 AM Post #3,120 of 5,933
No disagreement on my part...those are all the public relations errors I alluded to, and they have made a tremendous mess of it. If you wanted to teach a class on the right and wrong way to do this sort of thing, Cavalli is the good, "how to" example, LH Labs is the "how not to" example. So far, they've really made a mess of things.
 

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