Let’s talk DAT (Digital Audio Tapes)
May 26, 2020 at 5:27 PM Post #2 of 29
Well, a good DAT Tape gotta start out with a good recording deck. While this isn’t anything crazy, but it is a full-size deck.

Source is DX220 Optical
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May 26, 2020 at 8:34 PM Post #3 of 29
I still have one working DAT unit, a Tascam DA20. At one time, I had the Sony TCD-D7 and a play only Sony (wmd-dt1).

My primary use was to trade Grateful Dead tapes (that was cool by the Dead at the time).

Turns out that the units were also good for exercise as they did not skip. At the time most CD and Minidisc units skipped when running. Of course before that most walkmen also had wow and flutter issues also. Even the sports models were not immune.

Now the unit is largely unused, though I still have a few Dead tapes. But almost all of the live Dead material has been transferred to digital, and can be streamed. So the unit barely gets use.
 
May 26, 2020 at 9:00 PM Post #4 of 29
The idea of why I am interested in DAT tapes is that it is a hybrids between digital and analog. It doesn’t rely all on the algorithms to generate and reconstruct the pulses. It utilizes magnetism instead, and at the speed that it has, the density is pretty awesome. Just as you mentioned, DAT tapes has no wow/flutters.

I am surprised to see That there are not many people loving the DAT tapes
 
May 30, 2020 at 7:13 AM Post #5 of 29
DAT should be the format and mediums that dominate all other digital music domains.

Magnetic mechanism once lying within it field, the energies can be continuous and when there are peaks to peaks, the frequencies generated would be infinitely accurate. Perhaps the Nyquist Theories were correct in a way of using Magnetism to reconstruct the quantized frequencies over sampling rates would be very accurate. That is because once the quantization is so small, the magnetism moving from peak to peak can be so accurate and represent the original signals just as originally intended.
DAT Tapes are using Magnetic particles on a tapes that are recorded and read back by magnetic mechanism. Therefore, the signals are being very accurate (Dense) and can be said to be Analog (accurate)

I had doubts for a long while, but I finally caved in and invested into DAT tapes and I can only confirm that it sounds more analog and vivid than other digital systems I have. You can get all the digital music or files that you have below 48Khz to be recorded onto the tapes, the magnetism and it mechanic would piece together the informations and reproduce a very Analog feelings kind of music performances. Except there is no wow/flutter errors, or hisses

DAT should be the next successor to the Analog systems that we had, which was full of Flaws, such as LP with needles jumping, or warped surface, crackles and pops, where as Cassette has limited dynamic ranges, hisses and reel to reel has wow/flutter ...

The RIAA Brought such a wonderful format and mediums down to it knees.

Sony tried to be creative and came up with something else and limited it at 44.1 and not higher, the Hi-MD. However, the one problem it has was that the Writing process was better than the reading itself....because writing was magnetisms and the Lazer eyes can only read so much as it is limited by sizes...it was expensive, and neither adopted by the studios nor the consumers as much as DAT.

I understand that all of the technologies progression are making conveniences taking priority over quality, and therefore we have what we do now, Pure digital binary codes that leave the algorithms to be guessing and adding noises to reconstructing the analog signals. DAT are being made obsolete. However, it should be the best kind of analog successor and also digital that allow editing and recording easy.

If you don’t believe me ? Listen to it yourself.
 
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May 31, 2020 at 6:42 AM Post #6 of 29
This was one of the technology that scared the recording industry while they contradict themselves as in having it used everywhere.

It scared the recording industry in the sense that it would have allowed consumers to copy CDs with almost no loss of fidelity, while at the time, the only way a consumer could copy a CD was with an analogue cassette recorder which resulted in a far lower fidelity copy. After much discussion and threats of legal action, Sony agreed not to release DAT as a mass market consumer format. However, it was widely released to the pro-audio community and for several years was the default delivery format of stereo music mixes/masters (for both the music and TV/film industries).

The idea of why I am interested in DAT tapes is that it is a hybrids between digital and analog. It doesn’t rely all on the algorithms to generate and reconstruct the pulses. It utilizes magnetism instead, and at the speed that it has, the density is pretty awesome. Just as you mentioned, DAT tapes has no wow/flutters. ...
Magnetic mechanism once lying within it field, the energies can be continuous and when there are peaks to peaks, the frequencies generated would be infinitely accurate. Perhaps the Nyquist Theories were correct in a way of using Magnetism to reconstruct the quantized frequencies over sampling rates would be very accurate. That is because once the quantization is so small, the magnetism moving from peak to peak can be so accurate and represent the original signals just as originally intended.
DAT Tapes are using Magnetic particles on a tapes that are recorded and read back by magnetic mechanism. Therefore, the signals are being very accurate (Dense) and can be said to be Analog (accurate)

I'm not really sure where you got all that info but unfortunately none of it is correct.

DAT is not a "hybrid technology", it DOES rely on all the algorithms to construct and reconstruct the signal, it doesn't utilize magnetism "instead", the quantisation was not "so small" (it was 16bit, exactly the same as CD) and Nyquist/Shannon sampling theory applies to all digital audio, whatever type of media it's stored on. Additionally, your mention of "continuous" energies and "peak to peak" is a function of an analogue audio signal and analogue tape, not digital audio and lastly, DAT recorders, players and tapes, like all other tape players DO have wow/flutter. Although, along with tape noise/hiss, it's effectively irrelevant to digital audio unless it's extreme, IE. Does not affect the reconstructed analogue signal.

When practical digital audio recording devices were first developed (in the 1960's), they were all magnetic tape based, this continued until the creation of the optical based CD in the early 1980s but CD was an exclusively consumer distribution format. No digital recording studio used CD to record or mix/produce music, they all used digital tape recorders until well into the 1990's, because the CD format only supported a maximum of 2 channels of audio and CD writers were not available anyway. However, they all used considerably bigger tape than Sony's later DAT format, precisely because DAT did NOT have a "density" that was "pretty awesome", it had a pretty poor density, still only capable of storing no more than 2 channels of digital audio data! What eventually killed ALL digital audio tape was another "magnetic mechanism", one with far greater density and higher transfers rates, the Hard Disk Drive (HDD), which by the mid/late 1990's had large enough capacities at acceptable cost and offered many huge benefits, such as rapid seek times (and therefore non-linear/non-destructive editing), rather than having to find/locate to a position on a tape. What you assert regarding "magnetic particles" and "magnetic mechanism" with DAT makes absolutely no difference because HDDs also entirely rely on"magnetic particles that are recorded and read back by magnetic mechanism", although these magnetic particles are on "platters" which do not stretch or deform as tape can, which is why their density and transfer rates are so much higher than DAT.

Today, virtually all commercial recording and consumer playback is done with SSDs (solid state drives) or solid state RAM, which has even faster seek, record and read times and there's no magnetism involved anywhere, unless a consumer stores their digital audio data on a HDD but surely no one would rationally argue that the data (or resultant reconstructed analogue signal) is different if it is sourced from a HDD rather than an SSD?

G
 
Jun 1, 2020 at 8:27 AM Post #7 of 29
Have you listened and compared ? I did and I am simply following what I hear.

not even regular HDD with magnetism sound the way DAT tapes and decks do.

I am not simply saying it is literally hybrid technologies, I am saying that it utilizes both magnetism and digital encoding instead of digital with solid transistors.

Transistors drives needs it own algorithms to manage storage and read back as well. DAT tapes is reading direct In live feeding without algorithms to access and guess

I would love to read and learn more about how DAT technologies works with encoding and decoding. I am not interested in debates from baseless points and posts. This curiosity comes from me hearing superior performances from DAT systems
 
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Jun 1, 2020 at 9:32 AM Post #8 of 29
[1] Have you listened and compared ?
[2] I did and I am simply following what I hear.
[3] not even regular HDD with magnetism sound the way DAT tapes and decks do.

1. Yes, extensively. I used numerous DAT machines professionally over the course of a number of years and owned 3 myself: A pro DAT, a portable DAT and a time-code DAT. In addition to extensive listening tests, both casual and controlled, I also carefully measured them numerous times, both the integrity of the digital data and the analogue output.

2. I on the other hand am following the actual facts of what DAT is, how it and digital audio in general works, objective measurements and what I and other professionals heard.

3. HDDs and DAT tapes of course do not have any sound, they just store digital data on a magnetic media. Given exactly the same digital data, a HDD and DAT tape therefore MUST sound the same when that data is converted.

Lastly, even if we ignore the actual facts; listening comparisons and whatever anyone thinks they are hearing is irrelevant anyway to the types of assertions quoted below because DAT simply does not have the necessary functionality. Even by the 1970's, the vast majority of music recordings relied on multi-track recording, DAT only allowed 2 audio tracks, which is significantly less than the 24 track recording systems that had been the studio standard for roughly a decade before DAT was even released. Furthermore, unlike the stationary head (DASH) digital tape recorders used in studios at the time, DAT tapes could not be cut/spliced edited because they were recorded using helical scanning. So, DAT did not allow easier editing or recording even compared to digital tape recording systems that predated DAT by several years, let alone compared to the speed, ease and functionality of recording and editing with HDDs.

DAT should be the format and mediums that dominate all other digital music domains.
... it should be the best kind of analog successor and also digital that allow editing and recording easy.

G
 
Jun 1, 2020 at 9:59 AM Post #9 of 29
Could you point me to a source of DAT technologies ? I would love to learn more. You don’t have to agree with what I hear. It is just fact that I want to learn more about DAT. You said you have Facts about DAT, could you tell me about it ?

How does DAT not able to transfer data directly to PC but need to be recorded back ? And vice versa.

At least if different algorithms and coding used for it, there would be a way to extract the information as it is all 1-0 in different encoding. FE, SACD can be extracted by different ways but not DAT ?

Even the same DAT Decks using Coax/optical out into expensive DAC still sound inferior to the line out on the same deck. Yes, I am aware of different DAC steps.....unless the older 1 bit converter is superior to the new technologies

Now, you can say it is irrelevant again, and that is fine by me. But I am not in here to be lectured of what is relevant to you and or irrelevant. I am here to learn more about this technology. It is irrelevant to me if it is inferior to the new technologies, I just want to learn. Your post will also be irrelevant to me if you can’t point me to a book/source to learn about the technologies

please point me to a good book or source so I can learn on. Thanks
 
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Jun 1, 2020 at 10:16 AM Post #10 of 29
So how does DAT signals get conducted toward the DAC sections of the deck ? Does it travel as Electrical signals over an interfaces ? What interfaces is it ? SPDIF ? If so how does 1 bit DAC read multi bit SPDIF ?
 
Jun 1, 2020 at 11:47 AM Post #11 of 29
[1] Could you point me to a source of DAT technologies ?
[2] I would love to learn more. You don’t have to agree with what I hear. It is just fact that I want to learn more about DAT.
[2a] You said you have Facts about DAT, could you tell me about it ?
[3] How does DAT not able to transfer data directly to PC but need to be recorded back ? And vice versa.
[4] At least if different algorithms and coding used for it, there would be a way to extract the information as it is all 1-0 in different encoding. FE, SACD can be extracted by different ways but not DAT ?
[5] Even the same DAT Decks using Coax/optical out into expensive DAC still sound inferior to the line out on the same deck. Yes, I am aware of different DAC steps.....unless the older 1 bit converter is superior to the new technologies
[6] Now, you can say it is irrelevant again, and that is fine by me. But I am not in here to be lectured of what is relevant to you and or irrelevant.
[7] please point me to a good book or source so I can learn on. Thanks

1. Not really. DAT was a technology that solved the problem of transferring/delivering stereo digital mixes and masters for around a decade (between the late 1980's and the late 1990's), at which point it died out as bigger/quicker/cheaper technologies took over. So my source was other music/sound engineers, the pro-audio text books and articles of the time, as well as the info published by Sony themselves, most of which either doesn't exist any more or is buried in archives somewhere.

2. Don't you think it would have been better to learn about DAT technology first, instead of just making-up a bunch of "facts"/assertions?
2a. I can tell you some things about DAT but to be honest I've forgotten some of the fine details, because I stopped using DAT about 20 years ago, when it was superseded.

3. Not sure I understand the question. You couldn't transfer data directly to/from a PC to/from DAT because the typical method of transferring digital data was AES/EBU and PCs don't typically have AES/EBU digital inputs/outputs. I don't recall ever seeing a DAT machine with optical input/output. Optical inputs/outputs were added to equipment quite a few years after DAT was released and was not the transfer format of choice in the pro-audio industry.

4. DAT used standard PCM digital data, so the coding was the same.

5. DAT used Reed-Solomon error correction (as does CD), so unless the tape was quite severely damaged/faulty (which did happen on occasion) it couldn't sound different. I'm not sure what you mean by "older 1 bit converter", 1bit D/S conversion (and DSD) is a newer technology than PCM.

6. I'm not posting the facts that are relevant to me, I'm posting the facts that are relevant/irrelevant to DAT and it's use compared to other technologies. If you prefer to believe "facts" that you've just made-up, that's entirely up to you.

7. I don't know of any existing ones. Most probably you need to look for early editions of old digital audio text books, at books that exclusively deal with recording history or ~30 year old articles in journals like the AES and other pro-audio publications.

G
 
Jun 1, 2020 at 2:14 PM Post #12 of 29
I never said anything I posted were facts. I said that I observed the differences and it sounds better than what the new digital system has and that is that. Questions come from somewhere and to me it comes from observations with my ears first.

All signals digital would have to come out as Direct Stream Digital first before it comes out to be analog, so Ofcourse it has 1 bit converter

What else would it be ? PCM and digital amplifications instead was what you meant ? Similar to A class D amp ?

Model Details
The SV-3800 Pro-DAT features with a 1-bit, 64X oversampling A-D converter.
 
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Jun 1, 2020 at 2:25 PM Post #13 of 29
If it is similar to a class D Amp which feeds directly from the Magnetic mechanism itself then DAT tapes advantages is the time domains and pulse width being so accurately generated by magnetism head
 
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Jun 1, 2020 at 3:32 PM Post #14 of 29
DAT is LPCM which is different than PCM

PCM is pulse coded modulation
, whereas LPCM is linearpulse coded modulation. Linear means that the values are linearly spaced - the values are directly proportional to the signal amplitude

So, anything that has the meaning to record in LPCM can take huge advantage of Magnetism. Because the Amplitude are infinitely accurate rather than guesstimate modulated like PCM from PC or the modern PCM encoding.

This was why I called DAT is a perfect hybrid technologies from the point of view of Digital. Instead of typical PCM where the amplitudes and reconstructions of the square waves have to be modulated to become, the magnetism mechanic of DAT tapes already did the works.
 
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Jun 1, 2020 at 10:22 PM Post #15 of 29
Hey Vince - way back when I so wanted to buy the Sony portable DAT PCM-M1 or TCD-D100 but couldn't bring myself to spend that kind of money back then. Plus, never really became a widespread/mainstream format...

Anyways, just in case you want to do some additional reading on DAT here are a few goods sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Tape
https://siarchives.si.edu/sites/default/files/pdfs/digitalAudioTapesPreservation2010_0.pdf (Smithsonian Institution Archives paper on DAT preservation and conversion with lots of details, etc)

Hope you find something useful in this information.

Cheers,
Tim
 

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