[BlackPink]

Who knows what components this DDC uses.....and it would be interesting to know if the device is modular and therefore replaceable in the future.

 

[OhmsClaw]

Who knows what components this DDC uses.....and it would be interesting to know if the device is modular and therefore replaceable in the future.

If the DAC is modular why not offer the clock upgrade (if it's even an upgrade... also the dac accepts i2s and usb already so what's the ddc for within this ecosystem?)

 

[rafabro]

If the DAC is modular why not offer the clock upgrade (if it's even an upgrade... also the dac accepts i2s and usb already so what's the ddc for within this ecosystem?)

I kind of agree with what you say or suggest but I am not that sceptical.

I think..no I am almost sure, that they knew from the beginning what they going to introduce to market. And market wants DDC.
Is Harmony design like crap? Hell NO! It's sounds fantastic - even with more expensive competition.
But they must know at R&D level where they can implement limitations so they can sell more products

I can bet it was the Business plan.

 

[Jake2]

Who knows what components this DDC uses.....and it would be interesting to know if the device is modular and therefore replaceable in the future.

Indeed, a lot of unknowns. I just thought I’d express some unqualified initial enthusiasm based on the only available data points of matching aesthetics and LAIV’s form to date in delivering components that perform to a high standard individually and synergistically particularly well. By way of reference for folk like me who are shopping high performing DDCs we’re talking north of USD1k for the likes of Audio-GD or Denafrips. Let’s hope this LAiV DDC plays in the same tier.

 

[rafabro]

Let’s hope this LAiV DDC plays in the same tier.

After what I heard listening Harmony connected to Pink Faun I2S card, there is still some potential for improvement. It was changing sound signature but sound was clearer and sound stage deeper and wider. All this without any sharpness.

If we can get this or more but still using USB connected to uDDC, I am interested. Only downside is necessity for good I2S cable..


But what I would really like to see in few years time the most, is full hifi size DAC from LAiV, with all-in the best they can make with modular structure. Like MSB DAC's.

 

[venomas200]

I'm use I2S from Red, and I was try USB, and Coaxial and I still prefer I2S , Coaxial is very interesting, but dynamic goes down in + smooth and analog feeling. I 2S plays better midrange like in USB

 

[]eep]

Because the clock inside the DDC is no better than the clock inside the DAC.

If you need a DDC? Excellent, great design language and components.
If you have the LAIV and you think you need a better clock? C'mon.

The issue is the design language for stacking. I understand they nailed their chassis size and presentation... but its the suggestion you NEED this to make your DAC "whole".
It's the same crap with the Ferrum hypsos power supply...was the unit engineered properly with an internal donut transfomer/ripple filters/IV stage? Or was the whole chunk of copper we sold you as premium and everything attached to it designed to beat the accountants?

Yes, I understand that. But there's only so much space. And I really love the form factor. They could have made a bulky giant like the Terminator. But then I would never consider it. And the art of the engineer is compromise.

It's the same thing with the Cyrus line of amps and power supplies. Ever since I had the Mission Cyrus 2 in 1988 the extra PSX bothered me the same way. It doubled the price! And have you seen the prices of the new 40y an line of Cyrus? But it did have its place in the market as it was quite unique then, and it worked. But I never needed the extra power and control with my 25W LS3/5a's. So I upgraded to my first tube amp, which was a revelation. Which proves your point exactly. But it was 4x the size and even more power consumption (200W continuously). Which was acceptable back then.
It's the same with Gold Note. This time I did buy the extra PSU for the PH10 phono. Because the next up in the line is really out of my budget.

When talking about clocks and DDC, it makes me think of early communication across the ocean with the telegraph lines. They needed relay stations to boost the signal as the lines lost signal integrity over the long distances. I think this is very analogous for the high frequency signals we use today. Meaning you can never have enough reclocking. I know that's hyperbole but it's also the law of diminishing returns. Better means bigger and costlier, until there's a new technology taking over.

 

[catastrofe]

Cross-posting for uDDC input from @wengfai

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/laiv-harmony-uddc-re-clocker-ddc.975017/post-18453458

Can you comment on the benefit, if any, of using the uDDC with the Harmony DAC?

Since the DAC already has a Femto clock and excellent USB and I2S inputs, it would seem the market for the uDDC would be non-Harmony DAC owners.

 

[Jake2]

Cross-posting for uDDC input from @wengfai

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/laiv-harmony-uddc-re-clocker-ddc.975017/post-18453458

Can you comment on the benefit, if any, of using the uDDC with the Harmony DAC?

Since the DAC already has a Femto clock and excellent USB and I2S inputs, it would seem the market for the uDDC would be non-Harmony DAC owners.

Thanks for setting up the separate thread.

The question you pose for Weng-fai is a delicate one to answer for any DAC manufacturer who offers DDCs alongside their DACs e.g. Denafrips, Gustard, Holo (Red in DDC mode). The official line typically being each DAC has excellent isolation, noise and jitter handling (read: at its price point, relative to competitors) so DDCs/regens are not needed for the DAC to sound great (again read: at their price point), just an option to eke out another X% performance via an incremental upgrade at a lower cost than a new DAC if/when funds permit.

And sure enough most* DAC owners from those brands seem to be satisfied with the improvements their DDCs bring to the sound of their already well regarded DACs, and in the case of Denafrips note progressive improvements as you go up the DDC range with better quality oscillators and power.

For what it’s worth, after messing about with DDCs for a few years now here’s some thoughts as to how even a DDC with the same quality oscillator as the DAC it is feeding a synchronous digital signal to, here via I2S, has the potential to improve the DAC’s performance:
- an additional layer of isolation from noise on the source input signal, including moving that potentially noisy first contact point into a separate chassis far away from the DAC’s sensitive D-A circuitry and more importantly no longer sharing/polluting the DAC’s ground or power circuitry
- potential for a lower noise RFI/EMF and lower vibration internal operating environment in the DDC due to its fewer tasks and circuitry than a DAC
- potential for a lower ripple / noise power supply for the DDC and further benefits if more space in the chassis means it can be moved further away from the circuitry or even external as here. The µDDC‘s 5V DC input means the sky is the limit external PS wise for those so inclined.
- the above factors taken together mean the same oscillator and I2S signal generator circuitry could both potentially perform to a higher standard than they could in a DAC in their critical role of timing (or retiming) and (re)generating the synchronous I2S data stream from the input asynchronous or synchronous signal source.

*To be fair I was in the minority with the U18 and R26, I preferred the internal streamer to I2S from the U18 even with the latter’s supposedly higher specced oscillators - it all depends on implementation and what your reference is. The proof - as they say - is always in the pudding.

 

[catastrofe]

Thanks for setting up the separate thread.

The question you pose for Weng-fai is a delicate one to answer for any DAC manufacturer who offers DDCs alongside their DACs e.g. Denafrips, Gustard, Holo (Red in DDC mode). The official line typically being each DAC has excellent isolation, noise and jitter handling (read: at its price point, relative to competitors) so DDCs/regens are not needed for the DAC to sound great (again read: at their price point), just an option to eke out another X% performance via an incremental upgrade at a lower cost than a new DAC if/when funds permit.

And sure enough most* DAC owners from those brands seem to be satisfied with the improvements their DDCs bring to the sound of their already well regarded DACs, and in the case of Denafrips note progressive improvements as you go up the DDC range with better quality oscillators and power.

For what it’s worth, after messing about with DDCs for a few years now here’s some thoughts as to how even a DDC with the same quality oscillator as the DAC it is feeding a synchronous digital signal to, here via I2S, has the potential to improve the DAC’s performance:
- an additional layer of isolation from noise on the source input signal, including moving that potentially noisy first contact point into a separate chassis far away from the DAC’s sensitive D-A circuitry and more importantly no longer sharing/polluting the DAC’s ground or power circuitry
- potential for a lower noise RFI/EMF and lower vibration internal operating environment in the DDC due to its fewer tasks and circuitry than a DAC
- potential for a lower ripple / noise power supply for the DDC and further benefits if more space in the chassis means it can be moved further away from the circuitry or even external as here. The µDDC‘s 5V DC input means the sky is the limit external PS wise for those so inclined.
- the above factors taken together mean the same oscillator and I2S signal generator circuitry could both potentially perform to a higher standard than they could in a DAC in their critical role of timing (or retiming) and (re)generating the synchronous I2S data stream from the input asynchronous or synchronous signal source.

*To be fair I was in the minority with the U18 and R26, I preferred the internal streamer to I2S from the U18 even with the latter’s supposedly higher specced oscillators - it all depends on implementation and what your reference is. The proof - as they say - is always in the pudding.

Well stated.

However, the addition of another piece of equipment and associated connections introduces its own level of noise, EMI/RFI, etc., so an isolation benefit isn't necessarily guaranteed. Any such benefit must first exceed whatever is introduced by the piece itself.

 

[Jake2]

Well stated.

However, the addition of another piece of equipment and associated connections introduces its own level of noise, EMI/RFI, etc., so an isolation benefit isn't necessarily guaranteed. Any such benefit must first exceed whatever is introduced by the piece itself.

Cheers and quite agree re new potential points of noise ingress etc and your reference which may already be high - case in point my experience with the U18, if not the LHY UIP regen which nicely enhanced both the R26 and the Harmony DAC. Very much depends on design and execution.

 

[catastrofe]

Cheers and quite agree re new potential points of noise ingress etc and your reference which may already be high - case in point my experience with the U18, if not the LHY UIP regen which nicely enhanced both the R26 and the Harmony DAC. Very much depends on design and execution.

Agreed.

In years past I absolutely believed that a separate clock and DDC introduced benefit to the chain. Now I'm no longer convinced...I've seen posts from individuals building fortresses of additional equipment (with the associated cabling and power supplies) claiming better sound compared to a straight connection. Needless to say, I'm skeptical of the claimed improvement.

 

[OhmsClaw]

After what I heard listening Harmony connected to Pink Faun I2S card, there is still some potential for improvement. It was changing sound signature but sound was clearer and sound stage deeper and wider. All this without any sharpness.

If we can get this or more but still using USB connected to uDDC, I am interested. Only downside is necessity for good I2S cable..


But what I would really like to see in few years time the most, is full hifi size DAC from LAiV, with all-in the best they can make with modular structure. Like MSB DAC's.

Just buy a uni-directional HDR10 compliant 8K HDMI cable under 1.5M and you should be good to go

 

[BlackMagic]

As with most things – if it meets your needs/budget, then it’s fit for purpose. Is this unit unique ? As with Fluty I’m mainly a CDP proponent and as it happens this could not have arrived at a better time. In addition to my very old Wadia Transport, I recently splashed out on an ‘as new’, 14 year old MSB Platinum Data CD IV. Very strange beast all round – not just a CDT - with an I2S proprietary output. 2 pinouts are a mystery.

Initially I investigated these 2 links, to see if they could be identified and asked Weng as well. Seems they could have been used in car comm chips so functions unknown (2 way probably). MSB responded it’s NOT I2S and … “no Cable on Earth would work”. Found this odd as they named it PRO I2S.

Next, I asked a few digital designers, if there was such a thing as an AES or Coax to I2S converter. Possible it seems but you try finding one – anyone ? Forgot to ask Laiv !! Plenty of USB DDC’s out there but USB/AES/Coax input to I2S ? This could be of real benefit, to any Source (particularly if older/not ultra expensive), that does not have I2S output i.e. to enable the Dac to act as Master. More info required but pondering ….

 

[OhmsClaw]

As with most things – if it meets your needs/budget, then it’s fit for purpose. Is this unit unique ? As with Fluty I’m mainly a CDP proponent and as it happens this could not have arrived at a better time. In addition to my very old Wadia Transport, I recently splashed out on an ‘as new’, 14 year old MSB Platinum Data CD IV. Very strange beast all round – not just a CDT - with an I2S proprietary output. 2 pinouts are a mystery.

Initially I investigated these 2 links, to see if they could be identified and asked Weng as well. Seems they could have been used in car comm chips so functions unknown (2 way probably). MSB responded it’s NOT I2S and … “no Cable on Earth would work”. Found this odd as they named it PRO I2S.

Next, I asked a few digital designers, if there was such a thing as an AES or Coax to I2S converter. Possible it seems but you try finding one – anyone ? Forgot to ask Laiv !! Plenty of USB DDC’s out there but USB/AES/Coax input to I2S ? This could be of real benefit, to any Source (particularly if older/not ultra expensive), that does not have I2S output i.e. to enable the Dac to act as Master. More info required but pondering ….

It's a pro connection that's not widely used in the hobbyist community but definitely has its benefits. Not sure if there's a hobbyist/audiophile DDC for that particular conversion. I definitely spent 15 minutes looking just now xD.

As for the MSB "PRO I2S" sounds like a proprietary pin-out for no reason other than to keep consumers within the MSB ecosystem.