[MartinWT]

Coherent Systems are here:
https://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/services/upgrades

There's not much information online but Tony of Coherent could talk to you all day about his ultra low phase clock and upgrade work.

 

[xiamen]

Coherent Systems are here:
https://www.coherent-systems.co.uk/services/upgrades

There's not much information online but Tony of Coherent could talk to you all day about his ultra low phase clock and upgrade work.

I wonder if he can take this further and use the XO board to provide for an external master clock input. Usually that is not that attractive an idea as good reference clock costs an arm and a leg. But lately I looked into the concept of a GPS Disciplined Oscillator https://blog.bliley.com/what-are-gps-disciplined-oscillators-gpsdo-applications. On alixexpress, you can get those for only a few hundred USD and they advertised them as more accurate than atomic clock. I got this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33002738040.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.46a84c4dzuEexX which is a GNSS disciplined oscillator(OCXO). No documentation !!! But it seems to just work as a reference master clock. The constraint is your system needs to be close to a window so you can put the GPS receiver outdoor sky facing. Tried this out with my other DAC (ifi Pro iDSD) which accepts external clock input. I do believe I can hear serious improvements.

 

[b0bb]

I wonder if he can take this further and use the XO board to provide for an external master clock input. Usually that is not that attractive an idea as good reference clock costs an arm and a leg. But lately I looked into the concept of a GPS Disciplined Oscillator https://blog.bliley.com/what-are-gps-disciplined-oscillators-gpsdo-applications. On alixexpress, you can get those for only a few hundred USD and they advertised them as more accurate than atomic clock. I got this one https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33002738040.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.46a84c4dzuEexX which is a GNSS disciplined oscillator(OCXO). No documentation !!! But it seems to just work as a reference master clock. The constraint is your system needs to be close to a window so you can put the GPS receiver outdoor sky facing. Tried this out with my other DAC (ifi Pro iDSD) which accepts external clock input. I do believe I can hear serious improvements.

The main takeaway from this is the use of the OCXO
This is what I have done with the Pulsar. @Whitigir did something similar with the Abracon.

Abracon OCXOs that work with the LKS is about half the cost of the GPSDO unit you listed.

GPSDO units provide good stability over the long term over thousands of milliseconds, in audio it is the short term frequency stability that really matters hence the need for OCXOs
To put things into perspective 20Hz is 50ms.
OCXO provides the short term stability, GPSDO the long term stability.

Specific issues with the LKS
1)
The unit above outputs 10MHz, LKS needs 100MHz, it requires 10x multiplication. Phase noise goes up 10x.
Most common way is to use another oscillator with a DPLL to multiply the frequency. These are called Phased Locked XO (PLXO)
A good PLXO is expensive and can easily double the cost of the work.

This is very clunky as there are 3XOs one after another, GPSDO 10MHz, PLXO (10MHz --> 100MHz) and LKS masteclock 100MHz XO with DPLL.

2)
The iFi DAC is based on the Burr-Brown DAC, these do not have internal clock generators + DPLL unlike the ES9038. It uses an externally provided clock by design.

ES9038 has its own master clock, so you end up with two DPLLs.
One to multiply the 10MHz signal and one inside the ES9038.
DPLLs are a double edged sword.

In order to get the maximum benefit of an external clock source, the ES9038 has to be configured for slave mode operation. LKS runs it in master clock mode.

If want to explore the concept of an external master clock further, the Twisted Pair Buffalo III uses the ES9038 with the necessary programming interfaces exposed to put the DAC into slave mode bypassing the internal DPLL.

On the LKS you will have to disable parts of the onboard microcontrollers (uC) and rewire some of the DAC connections.
There 2 uCs so you will have to figure what roles each uC plays.
This is best done after experimentation on a similar design like the TP BIII.

 

[xiamen]

The main takeaway from this is the use of the OCXO
This is what I have done with the Pulsar. @Whitigir did something similar with the Abracon.

Abracon OCXOs that work with the LKS is about half the cost of the GPSDO unit you listed.

GPSDO units provide good stability over the long term over thousands of milliseconds, in audio it is the short term frequency stability that really matters hence the need for OCXOs
To put things into perspective 20Hz is 50ms.
OCXO provides the short term stability, GPSDO the long term stability.

Specific issues with the LKS
1)
The unit above outputs 10MHz, LKS needs 100MHz, it requires 10x multiplication. Phase noise goes up 10x.
Most common way is to use another oscillator with a DPLL to multiply the frequency. These are called Phased Locked XO (PLXO)
A good PLXO is expensive and can easily double the cost of the work.

This is very clunky as there are 3XOs one after another, GPSDO 10MHz, PLXO (10MHz --> 100MHz) and LKS masteclock 100MHz XO with DPLL.

2)
The iFi DAC is based on the Burr-Brown DAC, these do not have internal clock generators + DPLL unlike the ES9038. It uses an externally provided clock by design.

ES9038 has its own master clock, so you end up with two DPLLs.
One to multiply the 10MHz signal and one inside the ES9038.
DPLLs are a double edged sword.

In order to get the maximum benefit of an external clock source, the ES9038 has to be configured for slave mode operation. LKS runs it in master clock mode.

If want to explore the concept of an external master clock further, the Twisted Pair Buffalo III uses the ES9038 with the necessary programming interfaces exposed to put the DAC into slave mode bypassing the internal DPLL.

On the LKS you will have to disable parts of the onboard microcontrollers (uC) and rewire some of the DAC connections.
There 2 uCs so you will have to figure what roles each uC plays.
This is best done after experimentation on a similar design like the TP BIII.

The Singxer SU-1 have a word clock input. Can you apply an external master clock to that and would that benefit the LKS master.

 

[b0bb]

The Singxer SU-1 have a word clock input. Can you apply an external master clock to that and would that benefit the LKS master.

No, SU1 wants to be the masterclock source .

The wordclock is output not input, on my SU1 V2 it is 45MHz or 49MHz depending on the incoming sampling rate.

LKS needs a fixed 100Mhz for its internal PLXO, so you will still need the extra external PLXO to do the frequency multiplication to 100MHz.

The additional complication is that this is a non-integer multiplication (49MHz --> 100MHz) so there is the penalty of worsened jitter performance.

 

[aggielaw]

Well, I had a WTH moment tonight. I spent an hour plus removing the top and back plates of the LKS and flashing the new Amanero firmware. Not only do I not have DSD 256 or 512 available, I lost my access to DSD 128. I followed the instructions (thanks Lenny!) with one exception: I flashed the CPU without powering the LKS off and back on after flashing the firmware. Could that be the problem?

Also, I see the oddly-worded description of the windows10/linux DSD512 file just beneath the latest firmware file on the Amanero site. Should I use that file for something, and if so, how do I use it?

Thanks!

 

[b0bb]

Well, I had a WTH moment tonight. I spent an hour plus removing the top and back plates of the LKS and flashing the new Amanero firmware. Not only do I not have DSD 256 or 512 available, I lost my access to DSD 128. I followed the instructions (thanks Lenny!) with one exception: I flashed the CPU without powering the LKS off and back on after flashing the firmware. Could that be the problem?

Also, I see the oddly-worded description of the windows10/linux DSD512 file just beneath the latest firmware file on the Amanero site. Should I use that file for something, and if so, how do I use it?

Thanks!

firmware_2006be10 implements native DSD mode, this adds a new mode to the card.

Linux has the necessary device drivers, on Windows a new device driver is required to access native DSD mode, the driver is Setupuac2 1.097
If you did not flash this version then the problem is something else.

A full power-on reset should be performed after flashing each portion of the 2 different parts of the firmware.

 

[Xoverman]

I went back and took another look at the Amanero.
DSD512 is now working with Roon.
HQPlayer is still a no-go, lots of very nasty clicks when the stream starts and stops on my SMS200.

Sound quality is a step above the SU-1, backgrounds are blacker and the edginess is all but gone.
I was quite pleased and ordered another Amanero interface with the LT3042 PS (aka the non-sucky version)

At this rate I think I can take the SU-1 out of service permanently.

Good evening from Germany
Hy b0bb, can you please describe the difference between the SU-1 and the amanero with the new firmware a little more in detail.
I also use a SU-1, because I wasn't satisfied with the Sound of the amanero. Even not with your LT power supply modifications.
Dose the neu amanero firmware improve things so much?

 

[b0bb]

Good evening from Germany
Hy b0bb, can you please describe the difference between the SU-1 and the amanero with the new firmware a little more in detail.
I also use a SU-1, because I wasn't satisfied with the Sound of the amanero. Even not with your LT power supply modifications.
Dose the neu amanero firmware improve things so much?

Native DSD mode is several steps closer to unlocking the full potential of the Amanero.
The other piece is have Roon and/or HQP do the DSP heavy lifting, this gets most of the limited performance filters on the 9038 out of theway.
PCM on the LKS is not very interesting to me as the listening experience is thru the lens of the final stage PCM-->SDM converter in the 9038

When evaluating mods and the resultant sound quality it is very important to take the listening room out of the picture.
I do all my initial listening on headphones and if it passes the test I go onto to the speakers.

Headphones used for this must be of the highest quality, I use the Sennheiser HD800 and Stax SR009.
HD800 is a very difficult device if the source is not up to the task, it tends to magnify tiny imperfections and the listening experience will be quite unpleasant until it is addressed.
The SR-009 can sound flat and 2 dimensional if the imaging from the source is not up to the task.

SU-1 is the inferior device with the setup above, while appearing to sound clear and transparent, listening fatigue can set in quickly.
Transients especially from Cymbals smear to an unacceptable extent with the SU-1
In DSD mode the Amanero has a much fuller midrange without compromising on the transient behavior above.

Bass extension is really poor on the SU-1 compared to the Amanero on the HD800, I was quite surprised when I first heard the Amanero in native DSD mode.
SU-1 thins out the bass transient and the low note extension, it lacks punch on some material, on other material SU-1 is hyperactive with transients over emphasized, the worse offenders are the 80s albums where the musicians began using mostly electronic synthesized music.

SR-009 sounds very dull on the SU-1 compared to the Amanero.

More than a few people have commented than bass was not an issue, and this is quite possible if you are listening thru speakers as the low end is the room LF response.
If changes are made to the DAC on that basis the results are never good.

I am not quite ready to get rid of the SU-1 as the Amanero still have nasty clicks when changing sample rate basis ie from 44k base to 48k base and vice versa, 44k-->88k is OK, 44k-->96k nasty speaker killing click.
The mute signal does not appear to work.
My flash image was from May 27 and it looks like Amanero may have an update.

Post pictures of your LT3042 USB power supply and I might be able to offer comments as to why it is not working as expected.

 

[Forgisound]

I ordered the power supply for Amanero, I can not wait to arrive. Then I'll try to do tiny upgrades, including the new firmware.
I managed to get the SU-1 sound I'm happy with. The sound is very open and dynamic. However, albums with the beginning of the red book era are disgusting. I think so and it must be. Poor audio recordings should sound bad, they should not make HiFi setup better.

Bobb, I think your Sennheiser headset is a great sound quality evaluation tool. You need speakers just to hear what stage and bass is, because the real bass can not develop in the headphones.

 

[b0bb]

I ordered the power supply for Amanero, I can not wait to arrive. Then I'll try to do tiny upgrades, including the new firmware.
I managed to get the SU-1 sound I'm happy with. The sound is very open and dynamic. However, albums with the beginning of the red book era are disgusting. I think so and it must be. Poor audio recordings should sound bad, they should not make HiFi setup better.

Bobb, I think your Sennheiser headset is a great sound quality evaluation tool. You need speakers just to hear what stage and bass is, because the real bass can not develop in the headphones.

It is all relative, if you think SU-1 is good, a fully modified Amanero is a cut above that, that was when I realized how much of the LKS potential performance was left on the table when using the SU-1 once I started looking at the native DSD mode on the Amanero.

For a long time SU-1 was the only native DSD option that works with the linux based streamers like the SMS-200 and the LKS.

SU-1 is a very jittery device, the link below is a measurement on SPDIF.
Given that one of the main selling features of the unit is the low jitter re-clocking the results are a disappointment.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/post-161505
Compare the Gustard U12 (blue) to the SU-1 (red).
This tends to aggravate certain kinds of music like the early redbook stuff.

Bass playing from a speaker in a room is part from the speaker and part the room resonance modes, it makes it hard to do a comparative evaluation.
With that said, with the SU-1 I could feel the bass going over my concrete floor and up my chair, with the modified Amanero the walls shook as well, was not expecting that from the speaker that has 2 pairs of 10in woofers.
(This is part room resonance, my room has a mode at 26Hz, there was simply not enough energy at 26Hz to excite that mode when it was playing out of the SU-1)
Hence my comment about the SU-1 being bass shy.

Real bass can definately be present on headphone as it causes the skull to vibrate, but it will not be able to shake the whole body like a standalone speaker.
If the bass performance is good on the HD800, I have found the speaker performance will good as well.
Additionally I also have the Audeze LCD3 just to make sure

Early Redbook recordings do quite well with HQP, if you use an apodizing filter to get rid of the pre-ringing in the signal.
This some of the silly stuff the industry used back in the 80's on the digital data to make it sound acceptable on cheap equipment by actually pre-distorting the signal.

The SU-1 is injecting a lot of noise into the LKS, I had it plugged into the I2S input but idle, unplugging it lifted a veil on the music.

Self noise from various interfaces is potentially a problem on the LKS, @MartinWT noticed a similar behavior when the unused Amanero was removed from the DAC.

The updated Amanero is a much cleaner presentation, it goes the next step in extracting even more performance out of the LKS 004

...but it is not completely free from issues, I am still quite concerned with the 44k/48k loud cracks I am hearing on my unit

 

[Xoverman]

The updated Amanero is a much cleaner presentation, it goes the next step in extracting even more performance out of the LKS 004

are we talking about an software update or also a neu hardware ?

 

[Forgisound]

[QUOTE = "b0bb, post: 15052221, član: 408594"] Sve je relativno, ako mislite da je SU-1 dobar, potpuno modificirani Amanero je rez iznad toga, tada sam shvatio koliko je potencijala LKS-a performanse su ostavljene na stolu kada je koristio SU-1 kad sam počeo gledati izvorni DSD mod na Amanero.

Dugo je SU-1 bila jedina prirodna DSD opcija koja radi s linux baziranim streamerima poput SMS-200 i LKS.

SU-1 je vrlo nervozan uređaj, link ispod je mjerenje na SPDIF.
S obzirom na to da je jedna od glavnih prodajnih značajki jedinice nisko podrhtavanje, rezultati su razočaranje.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/post-161505
Usporedite Gustard U12 (plavo) sa SU-1 (crveno).
To teži otežavanju određenih vrsta glazbe kao što su one u ranoj knjizi Redbooka.

Reprodukcija basova iz zvučnika u sobi dio je zvučnika i dio je rezonancije prostora, te je teško napraviti komparativnu procjenu.
S tim što sam rekao, s SU-1 osjetio sam kako bas prolazi preko mog betonskog poda i uz moj stolac, s izmijenjenim Amanerom i zidovi su se tresli, to nije očekivalo od zvučnika koji ima 2 para 10in woofera.
(Ovo je dio rezonancije prostorije, moja soba ima mod na 26Hz, jednostavno nije bilo dovoljno energije na 26Hz da bi pobudila taj mod kada se igrala izvan SU-1)
Zato moj komentar o SU-1 je bas stidljiv.

Pravi bas može definitivno biti prisutan na slušalicama jer uzrokuje vibriranje lubanje, ali neće moći tresti cijelo tijelo kao samostalni zvučnik.
Ako su performanse basa dobre na HD800, i ja sam otkrio da će performanse zvučnika također biti dobre.
Osim toga, imam i Audeze LCD3 kako bih bio siguran

Snimci rane knjige Redbooka dobro se slažu s HQP-om, ako koristite filtar za brisanje kako biste se riješili prethodnog zvonjenja u signalu.
To su neke od tih glupih stvari koje je industrija koristila još 80-ih godina na digitalnim podacima kako bi zvučale prihvatljivo na jeftinoj opremi time što su zapravo unaprijed izobličile signal.

SU-1 ubrizgava mnogo buke u LKS, ja sam ga priključio na ulaz I2S, ali je bio u stanju mirovanja, isključivši ga podignuvši veo na glazbu.

Sama buka iz različitih sučelja je potencijalno problem na LKS-u, [USER = 506797] @MartinWT [/ USER] primijetio je slično ponašanje kada je neiskorišteni Amanero uklonjen iz DAC-a.

Ažurirani Amanero je mnogo čišća prezentacija, ide sljedeći korak u izdvajanju još bolje izvedbe LKS 004

... ali nije posve slobodan od problema, još uvijek sam zabrinut zbog 44k / 48k glasnih pukotina koje čujem na mojoj jedinici [/ QUOTE]
Jinbo

It is all relative, if you think SU-1 is good, a fully modified Amanero is a cut above that, that was when I realized how much of the LKS potential performance was left on the table when using the SU-1 once I started looking at the native DSD mode on the Amanero.

For a long time SU-1 was the only native DSD option that works with the linux based streamers like the SMS-200 and the LKS.

SU-1 is a very jittery device, the link below is a measurement on SPDIF.
Given that one of the main selling features of the unit is the low jitter re-clocking the results are a disappointment.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...f-singxer-su-1-usb-to-s-pdif.7095/post-161505
Compare the Gustard U12 (blue) to the SU-1 (red).
This tends to aggravate certain kinds of music like the early redbook stuff.

Bass playing from a speaker in a room is part from the speaker and part the room resonance modes, it makes it hard to do a comparative evaluation.
With that said, with the SU-1 I could feel the bass going over my concrete floor and up my chair, with the modified Amanero the walls shook as well, was not expecting that from the speaker that has 2 pairs of 10in woofers.
(This is part room resonance, my room has a mode at 26Hz, there was simply not enough energy at 26Hz to excite that mode when it was playing out of the SU-1)
Hence my comment about the SU-1 being bass shy.

Real bass can definately be present on headphone as it causes the skull to vibrate, but it will not be able to shake the whole body like a standalone speaker.
If the bass performance is good on the HD800, I have found the speaker performance will good as well.
Additionally I also have the Audeze LCD3 just to make sure

Early Redbook recordings do quite well with HQP, if you use an apodizing filter to get rid of the pre-ringing in the signal.
This some of the silly stuff the industry used back in the 80's on the digital data to make it sound acceptable on cheap equipment by actually pre-distorting the signal.

The SU-1 is injecting a lot of noise into the LKS, I had it plugged into the I2S input but idle, unplugging it lifted a veil on the music.

Self noise from various interfaces is potentially a problem on the LKS, @MartinWT noticed a similar behavior when the unused Amanero was removed from the DAC.

The updated Amanero is a much cleaner presentation, it goes the next step in extracting even more performance out of the LKS 004

...but it is not completely free from issues, I am still quite concerned with the 44k/48k loud cracks I am hearing on my unit

Jimbo also claims Amanero sounds better.

 

[littlexx26]

More than a few people have commented than bass was not an issue, and this is quite possible if you are listening thru speakers as the low end is the room LF response.
If changes are made to the DAC on that basis the results are never good.

No. Yes I am one of the few commented LKS004 bass was not an issue and I am listeniing through speakers. And yes I admit the bass is coming from the speakers+room response. But I disagree the cause of "not an issue" is this. If you feel the bass is weak and thin, first please check your cables. I have used some pure silver cables (made by Lavricables, their top of the line Master series, power cord and speaker cables) and serveral interconnects from Oyaide, DH Labs. They all made the sound quality bad including weak bass, harsh high, glare etc. After I changed to good quality cables whole frequency range sound correct and no distortion. What you are doing now adjusting the sound signature of LKS004 is all based on the cables you are using. I would say the stock LKS004 is everything all right.
And my Amanero is powered by uptone LPS1.2

 

[b0bb]

are we talking about an software update or also a neu hardware ?

Upgrade is software only.