[myinitialsaredac]

Hello all,
I have an interesting opportunity to get a k1000, and was wondering if it would be at all worth while on a Millett Max, the specs on the amp are:
CA2: Black Gate NX, 1000uf 25V
CA7: Black Gate NX, 680uf 35V
CA8: Vitamin Q's, 0.22uf 100V
CA9: blank (Wimas elsewhere)
2SC2238/2SA968 BJT Diamond Buffer

The tubes are 12AE6.

Right now I have an hd600 and k701 which both sound very nice through this amp, though I cant handle the volume turned past 25% (9 o'clock).

So if I did not want to upgrade amps right now, is it worth it to pick up a k1000 or would it require more amp power to sound "good"?

Dave

 

[Blackmore]

You have to pair them with speaker amp, A class would be better. But if you are on real budget, you can get TrendsAudio T10.1 for them and get pretty damn good sound to enjoy. I tried them from out of Yoshino EAR HP4 and to my surprise they sounded o.k., but not that good as I would like them to be. Another option, for little bit more, is Big Joe from Firestone Audio, just check the FS forum time to time. Here is one for sale, but its EU based head fier, but you can ask him, at least...http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f42/fs...amp-eu-415871/

Good luck!

 

[tintin47]

You absolutely need a better amp. You can get one that will sound pretty damn good for not very much though, because the k1k is one of the rare phones that really only demands power. and lots of it. The phones will get much better with better amps, but they will sound very good as long as you can put lots of power into them.

 

[Fitz]

The K1000 is very revealing of differences in amp quality, but it doesn't have much to do with whether its a speaker amp or headphone amp. They need a high quality amp to sound their best, not simply lots of power (unless you listen very loud, the K1000 only draws a matter of milliwatts...).

 

[tintin47]

Based on what I have heard, I disagree. I haven't heard them a lot, but I heard very clear differences from simply halving the power to the phones (they were being dual amped through two amps) The phones are meant to be driven from a speaker amp, and they do respond to increases in power, to a point.

I agree that they do respond really well to increases in amp quality, but IMO you need a lot of power to get them to a base level of "k1000-ness".

Also think about the fact that for a 10 dB increase you need 10x the power, so power demanded gets much larger very quickly, even considering in-song level changes.

Edit: They have a rating of 74 dB/mW, so they should draw about a watt at 100 dB. This is confirmed in this article, at the bottom (also notice the "distortion at 400mW stat). Now, 100dB is not an unreasonable peak, and one that is probably reached if you listen at 85dB avg. That is a bit loud, but well within WHO standards for safe volumes (as long as you don't listen too long). So, you need 1W of output power to drive them to a reasonable volume well, and I would contend that you want your amp to be capable of going a few dB above that because it is more linear when you don't push it near its extremes. Lets say to 115dB. You would need ~10W to get them there, or a small speaker amp to drive them comfortably.

 

[robm321]

I'll just say that I've never heard them do well with headphone amps. They lose their dynamics. They sound good and you can definitely get by if you plan to get something down the road.

With the right amp they become spectacular.

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tintin47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Edit: They have a rating of 74 dB/mW, so they should draw about a watt at 100 dB. This is confirmed in this article, at the bottom (also notice the "distortion at 400mW stat). Now, 100dB is not an unreasonable peak, and one that is probably reached if you listen at 85dB avg. That is a bit loud, but well within WHO standards for safe volumes (as long as you don't listen too long). So, you need 1W of output power to drive them to a reasonable volume well, and I would contend that you want your amp to be capable of going a few dB above that because it is more linear when you don't push it near its extremes. Lets say to 115dB. You would need ~10W to get them there, or a small speaker amp to drive them comfortably.

You're coming from a completely different perspective than me if you listen loud enough that you're regularly hitting 100dB. Keep in mind that 1W is the K1000s maximum rated power level, and they become extremely loud long before reaching that point (unless your name is Ray

).



Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll just say that I've never heard them do well with headphone amps. They lose their dynamics. They sound good and you can definitely get by if you plan to get something down the road. With the right amp they become spectacular.

I suspect most people put a lot more consideration into finding the right speaker amp for the K1000 than they ever did with any headphone amps. I find many headphone amps don't sound very good at all to my ears (not just with K1000), does that mean we should just eschew headphone amps altogether? I don't understand why people are always quick to voice opposition to the thought that the speaker amp they love with the K1000 sounds as good as it does because it's simply a better amp in the first place rather than just because it's a speaker amp.

 

[tintin47]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're coming from a completely different perspective than me if you listen loud enough that you're regularly hitting 100dB. Keep in mind that 1W is the K1000s maximum rated power level, and they become extremely loud long before reaching that point (unless your name is Ray ).

I would agree with you on the volume level. I am just saying that it is well within the realm of possibility that someone would need something much more powerful than a headamp to drive them, but my ears also believe that they improve with more power regardless of volume level.

 

[Pyriel0]

Its 1 watt at 120 ohm for 104 db. Every 3 db is double or half in power(RF Power Values * [Wireless, LAN (WLAN)] - Cisco Systems). So if you scale it down to say 95db, that is 104-3-3-3 hence 1watt /2/2/2 = .125 watts.
I=current
P=V*I V=I*R -> I=V/R P=V^2 / R

So the square root of .125*120 should be the rms voltage = 3.87vrms = 10.95vpp An m3 can put out that much.
V peak to peak to Vrms conversion calculator used for vrms to vpp conversions.

Even if you want to argue and use 100db its still only 400mw@120ohms to get that in the first place and ends up being 19.6vpp which is still within the m3(OPA604, 40V PSU) spec on the amb site. Just because some people can't do math and buy amps that put out 10/20/30/50 watts per channel(and not even use half a watt) doesn't mean everyone has to. My shanlings drive the K1000 just fine and anyone that listened to them at the Illinois meet will be able to tell you(didn't have the greatest source at the meet though

) . Aura's Moth amp also drove the K1000 fine single ended.

I have no idea where to find specs of how much power the millet max can output though.

 

[Aiyo]

sorry to steal away from the topic, but i heard that the k1000 sounds better with SS amps rather than tube amps..? Is this true?

 

[tintin47]

I agree with you pyriel0; I heard your 1000s at the meet with those amps. I tried them single ended and balanced at the same volume and when single ended they were noticably worse to my ears (from this I am also working off of the assumtion that going balanced could not have changed them as much as I heard, which could be a flaw in my thinking, but the difference between balanced and unbalanced that I have heard in the past was not so large.). They can be driven by something less than a speaker amp, but my contention is that listening at not an unreasonable level, they could clip or be distorted when being driven by something less than a power amp (or something like a Beta).

My only point is that they do need a lot of juice when getting any peaks or anything above 100 dB, which is something to consider because many users here probably listen pretty loudly and could easily run into such an issue (and because peaks can sometimes be 15dB from avg). On top of that, I believe that the power output of your amp should be much higher than what your phones can handle, for reasons I pointed out earlier.

Also, how are you liking the K1Ks now that you have had a few weeks with them?

 

[Pyriel0]

Yeah I see your point. Once you go over the 95ish db point the voltage swings do start getting pretty big. 10vpp difference from 95 to 100 and would be even bigger higher up. I think any decent ss amp (shanling/m3 type/c2c) with a good power supply would be able to take care of them for any reasonable listening level. For tubes amps I have no idea. No experience with tube amps besides the quick listens at the meet lol.

They sound a bit better since I got the buffalo dac. I noticed when I listened to them on Aura's setup that the cymbals sounded smoother and on my system they sounded a bit harsh. I thought it was just ss vs tube from reading what everyone says on here. Turns out it was the dac. The buffalo has made everything smoother with a bit more texture/detail. I'm happy with my setup now but I want to test out an audo gd c2c amp still(like Ray said "People get bored" lol) just to see if it is better than the shanling amp at all.

 

[tintin47]

Did you have the buffalo DAC at the meet? I have been wanting to hear one and I would be unhappy if I missed it right under my nose.

 

[Fitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tintin47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif (from this I am also working off of the assumtion that going balanced could not have changed them as much as I heard, which could be a flaw in my thinking, but the difference between balanced and unbalanced that I have heard in the past was not so large.).

Single-ended vs. balanced is not simply changing the output power level, if that's what you were actually referring to before in regards to hearing a difference of the same amp at half the power...

 

[Pyriel0]

Nope I had the citypulse da7.2x II. I'll have the buffalo there for the next meet whenever it comes along. I'm waiting for one guy to compare shanling vs c2c whenever his c2c gets to him. If it shows much promise, I will test one out for myself and maybe switch to 2x c2c amps. Other than that, my sig setup will stay the same until something breaks(I will cry ... seriously). I may pick up a D7000/ victor dx700 or 1000 though if the bug gets me again. I should probably have a nice set of closed headphones too I guess.

Edit: Sorry for thread derail btw. Imo you should be ok as long as the amp can do 20volts peak to peak(and that is on the high side, most likely fine with 10) and has a good power supply backing it up so plenty of current is available too. With my setup balanced using the ps3 to play cd's, I only went to 4-5 out of 12 on the dial. Since gain is doubled in balanced config I'm guessing one doing single ended would be 8-10 on the dial. I can't test it out atm because I let a friend borrow my K701 and 4 pin xlr -> single ended adapter.