K1000 vs. HE60/HE90

[nightfire]

Sorry if this has been discussed at length elsewhere but I didn't see any dedicated threads in my cursory search.

Does anyone here own both, or has anyone done extensive head to head comparisons (with best-of-breed amplifiers)? If so which do you prefer, and why?

 

[seacard]

Very hard to compare the two. The K1000 has the more "vocal" supporters on this forum than any other headphone, but they were not my cup of tea. At their best, they are very good. If you have the right amp for them, they are probably the closest to a speaker setup that you can get with a pair of headphones.

For me, I was not looking for the speaker-like presentation. They have a great (GREAT) soundstage, but to me lacked the intimacy that I enjoy with a nice pair of headphones.

Both the K1000 and the HE60 are on the brighter side, so you need to make sure you like that kind of sound. The K1000s (to me) try to be both a speaker and a headphone, and I don't feel it is great in either. The HE60s are my second favorite headphone (behind the HE90s). They certainly won't offer the same spacial imaging and soundstage that the K1000s will, but I like their immediacy and intimacy much better.

I've owned the K1000 three times, sold them each time, and never regretted it (kept coming back because people are so crazy about them here that I felt like I must have been missing something). I sold my first pair of the HE60s and regretted it ever since, until I finally acquired another pair recently. [I've spent less than an hour total with the HE90s, so I don't feel entirely qualified to comment on them, other than to say that I really liked what I heard in that hour.]

 

[nightfire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very hard to compare the two. The K1000 has the more "vocal" supporters on this forum than any other headphone, but they were not my cup of tea. At their best, they are very good. If you have the right amp for them, they are probably the closest to a speaker setup that you can get with a pair of headphones. For me, I was not looking for the speaker-like presentation. They have a great (GREAT) soundstage, but to me lacked the intimacy that I enjoy with a nice pair of headphones. Both the K1000 and the HE60 are on the brighter side, so you need to make sure you like that kind of sound. The K1000s (to me) try to be both a speaker and a headphone, and I don't feel it is great in either. The HE60s are my second favorite headphone (behind the HE90s). They certainly won't offer the same spacial imaging and soundstage that the K1000s will, but I like their immediacy and intimacy much better. I've owned the K1000 three times, sold them each time, and never regretted it (kept coming back because people are so crazy about them here that I felt like I must have been missing something). I sold my first pair of the HE60s and regretted it ever since, until I finally acquired another pair recently. [I've spent less than an hour total with the HE90s, so I don't feel entirely qualified to comment on them, other than to say that I really liked what I heard in that hour.]

Interesting. I too am not huge on soundstage and prefer the intimacy of 'phones, as opposed to speakers. How would you compare things like clarity, instrument separation, transients, tonality, etc., between the HE60 and the K1000?

 

[neilvg]

I think seacard nailed it pretty well (btw, stop following me dude!

)

Anyway, I have also owned the K1000's and sold them. I sort of regret it, but I'd rather put my money into 1 setup and make it really nice. The K1K's can sound amazing (or pretty bad) depending on source and amp and even cables, but to me, they just aren't my cup of tea. They tend to be bright, cannot generally be played very loudly and are very susceptible to room/ambient noise. Additionally, as seacard said, I am looking for a headphone to be a headphone. A speaker rig will destroy the K1000 (and most headphones). So, for me, I am indeed looking for that intimate headphone sound. The HE60 & HE90 are at the top of the game.

The K1000's do have a lifelike speaker-like soundstage. Compared to any other headphone, they are better (in stage presentation). But, there is a different kind of magic to the HE60's and HE90's that you will just have to try and compare to really be able to form any real conclusions. These top tier headphones are difficult to describe unless you have at least some experience to form a foundation for further comments.

There has been plenty written about these headphones... however you are likely correct in ascerting that it hasn't been compiled all together. Due to this purpose, an upcoming meet (which should have happened some time ago ("party @ Neil's) is schedule for sometime in December (hopefully), in which we will be comparing:

HE60 (x2)
HE90 (x2)
Omega II
HEV90
ES-1 (maxxed)
K1000 (x2)
Firstwatt F-1

all simultaenously connected to the EMM Labs gear (it can feed four amps at once)... We even made a demo CD and dispersed it to interested attendees... the meet just hasn't happened yet due to the crazed holiday season.

Neil

 

[humanflyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think seacard nailed it pretty well (btw, stop following me dude! ) Anyway, I have also owned the K1000's and sold them. I sort of regret it, but I'd rather put my money into 1 setup and make it really nice. The K1K's can sound amazing (or pretty bad) depending on source and amp and even cables, but to me, they just aren't my cup of tea. They tend to be bright, cannot generally be played very loudly and are very susceptible to room/ambient noise. Additionally, as seacard said, I am looking for a headphone to be a headphone. A speaker rig will destroy the K1000 (and most headphones). So, for me, I am indeed looking for that intimate headphone sound. The HE60 & HE90 are at the top of the game. The K1000's do have a lifelike speaker-like soundstage. Compared to any other headphone, they are better (in stage presentation). But, there is a different kind of magic to the HE60's and HE90's that you will just have to try and compare to really be able to form any real conclusions. These top tier headphones are difficult to describe unless you have at least some experience to form a foundation for further comments. There has been plenty written about these headphones... however you are likely correct in ascerting that it hasn't been compiled altogether. Due to this purpose, an upcoming meet (which should have happened some time ago ("party @ Neil's) is schedule for sometime in December (hopefully), in which we will be comparing: HE60 (x2) HE90 (x2) Omega II HEV90 ES-1 (maxxed) K1000 (x2) Firstwatt F-1 all simultaenously connected to the EMM Labs gear (it can feed four amps at once)... We even made a demo CD and dispersed it to interested attendees... the meet just hasn't happened yet due to the crazed holiday season. Neil

Oh wow, I totally forgot we are supposed to have that meet. Damn you finals!

But the good news, I've really gotten to know the demo CD, and I'm still rocking to XTC these days

If not for that CD, I would've never been introduced to them.

Anyways, here's my own take on the K1000s: they are an unique pair of headphones, and because of that, they really don't have a niche. People who are mainly using midrange headphones in the $300 range are generally not ready to put the time, effort, and money to track them down and build a setup that plays to their strengths. On the other spectrum, people who have uber-setups probably have high-end speakers anyways, so their money is better spent building a traditional headphone setup if they want the headphone experience. Therefore, the K1000 is kind of stuck without a niche of their own, since for newbies, they are a lot of trouble to get right, and for experienced users, they are redundant since these experienced users already have speakers.

So already there will be a lot less users with synergistic K1000 setups, add to the fact that the K1000s are not meet-friendly cans, so people who only hear the K1000s at meet probably won't get a good understanding of their nuances. All of these conditions added together mean that opinions on the K1000s are inconsistent and all over the place, and not easily verifiable by other people.

But this is what the next meet at Neil's place is supposed to come in, so that we can get some good opinion on how the K1000s stack up in a top-end system when put up against a top-end headphone experience. And the conditions are ideal, since we are using the same source directly connected to the amp, and in an intimate environment, and using the same music.

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh wow, I totally forgot we are supposed to have that meet. Damn you finals! But the good news, I've really gotten to know the demo CD, and I'm still rocking to XTC these days If not for that CD, I would've never been introduced to them. But this is what the next meet at Neil's place is supposed to come in, so that we can get some good opinion on how the K1000s stack up in a top-end system when put up against a top-end headphone experience. And the conditions are ideal, since we are using the same source directly connected to the amp, and in an intimate environment, and using the same music.

Man, you're really making me want to have this meet! Oh well, I suppose it WILL happen sooner or later (likely later? but in any case relatively soon). I'm really glad you like XTC. In my opinion, they are one of the truly great and sadly forgotten pop bands of the 80's and 90's. Just brilliant stuff. What albums have you been listening to?

Neil

 

[Carl]

Whichever of them you choose, headphones of this level deserve an amp of the same calibur. You can certainly drive an HE60 from a HEV70 with the stock power supply, and the K1000 out of a standard headphone amp, but you'll only be skirting the fringes of what they're capable of.

 

[humanflyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Man, you're really making me want to have this meet! Oh well, I suppose it WILL happen sooner or later (likely later? but in any case relatively soon). I'm really glad you like XTC. In my opinion, they are one of the truly great and sadly forgotten pop bands of the 80's and 90's. Just brilliant stuff. What albums have you been listening to? Neil

Mostly Skylarking, but I will start buying their other CDs sooner or later.

 

[neilvg]

Yeah Skylarking is good place to start. If you like that album, get Nonesuch and Oranges & Lemons. Also The Big Express is excellent and it came right before skylarking.

Neil

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think seacard nailed it pretty well (btw, stop following me dude! )

This time, I beat you to the punch.

It seems like Neil and I have similar taste in our headphones and seem to have almost identical impressions of many of the headphones we've tried.

You need to add a pair of R-10s to that meet; that's a pair of headphones that, in my opinion, plays in the same general league as the HE90, and I'd love to hear other people's impressions in that shootout. And maybe a balanced HD650, just for completeness sake.

 

[humanflyz]

@seacard:

What amps have you heard the K1000s with? I'm not asking that so I can play the "but you haven't heard the K1000s on a good amp" card on you, because I respect your opinion; I'm merely curious.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif @seacard: What amps have you heard the K1000s with? I'm not asking that so I can play the "but you haven't heard the K1000s on a good amp" card on you, because I respect your opinion; I'm merely curious.

I've only had a few brief listens on speaker amps. The most extended of my listens was on the Portal Panache which I owned for a short while that coincided with the K1000s. I spent a few weeks with that combo. The second time I owned one (technically the third, since I also owned one that I never opened) I only used an MPX Slam and then a Balanced Supra. The K1000s sounded great out of the Panache, and only ok out of the Supra and the Slam. (I also tried it with the GS-1, but that didn't match up well either at the time.)

Obviously I haven't heard the Aleph or the FirstWatt, so I may be missing out on a combination that destroys the HE90s. Unfortunately, there is only so much money and time I can devote to this hobby, so I had to make an educated guess as to whether the sound of the headphone will change dramatically with a different speaker amp. But I definitely wouldn't mind hearing the FirstWatt / K1000 combo from a slightly warmer source (maybe the G08, or the Cary 306 SACD that I'm lusting after) or something along those lines. Maybe someday I will.

 

[humanflyz]

No, I'm definitely not suggesting that a synergistic K1000 setup will destroy the Orpheus, because I think both are top-notch systems. But I've yet to hear the K1000s sound their best out of a headphone amp, so a speaker amp is pretty much required if you want to get the absolute best out of them. For some, this endeavor is not worth the time or money, but for me, it is.

 

[Meyvn]

It's been said a thousand times, but I'll say it again: from everything I've gathered about high end headphones, by hearing and by others' words, once you get to a certain point it's completely subjective. I've heard "top end" headphones I couldn't stand, and others I've absolutely loved. I think those of us that truly love the K1000s are those in-between people that really want speakers but really want the detail and at least SOME of the intimacy of headphones. We're an odd bunch. If you like the headphone presentation, no matter how unbelievable in detail and soundstage the K1000 is, you probably won't get into it as much as you'd get into higher end headphones. I'd personally recommend the MDR-R10 or the SR-007 to anyone who liked the K1000 but preferred a headphone sound signature. HE90 I'm afraid I can't exactly comment on, but I just figured those two being oft mentioned in teh same breath might be worth mentioning. I guess the one really, really nice thing about hte K1000 is of all the 'top tier' headphones, it's by far the cheapest. Or at least, it was when I bought mine. Now it's only a little bit behind the SR-007 I suppose. Still way cheaper than the HE90 or the R10, though.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, I'm definitely not suggesting that a synergistic K1000 setup will destroy the Orpheus, because I think both are top-notch systems. But I've yet to hear the K1000s sound their best out of a headphone amp, so a speaker amp is pretty much required if you want to get the absolute best out of them. For some, this endeavor is not worth the time or money, but for me, it is.

I agree completely. The Panache did the K1000s some justice, but I imagine they will be incredible with the Aleph or F1. If I could never listen to speakers, I would probably buy the K1000s for that kind of presentation. Fortunately, I have no space restrictions or neighbors to annoy and can listen to my speakers when I want. I turn to my headphones for a different kind of sound that I think some other headphones do a bit better than the AKGs.