[Poetik]

Quote:

 
wow, i didn't see that one coming! most everything i've seen you write about this device has been overwhelmingly positive. now if you're getting a jh3a then i can understand this, else i'd really like to hear about your seeming change of heart.
 
 

Yea, I'm curious why he felt that way as well. 
 

 

[goodvibes]

Spyro, I read elsewhere that your Ipod with 256 was better than you stand alone CDPs. Did you try other formats/players/rippers before you gave up on them. I'm not blaming the 256 because even though it lacks some connectedness to the finer detail, it should be enough to please here. I actually think using a dedicated ripper instead of Itunes to rip is about as important but wont debate it here. I do find the HD Ipods a bit ringy overall. I know that you're not that far from me. I would have been interested in your take on my Ipod touches with some good wav files before you gave up on them. May not have helped as nothing works for everyone but I had such a good impression of 13 on audition that I would hate to think that this isn't all the phone's fault which I'm not saying it isn't as I can't know your mind/ears.
 
 I think it's fair to not like them and completely understand the disappointment in that expenditure not meeting your goals but I'm not sure that it's fair to pound JH over not using a particular after market cable. It's quite possible they don't think it worthwhile or feel the money is better spent on the next model up in general though in this specific case that's more different than better. Regardless of what they put on it, there would be something claimed to be better out there and last I checked, the twag doesn't come on Melodys or Westones either.

 

[AVU]

Quote:

Seeing all the talk about 13 vs 16 bass, my JH13Pro never have too much bass unless I use them with my Pico Slim amp, and then the deep bass seems disconnected from the rest of the spectrum and turned up too much.  My balanced RSA Protector or SR-71b are a better match for them.  When I heard the JH16 demos at RMAF last October it was with also with a balanced Protector, and I didn't think they had too much bass at all - I thought the 16 improved the mid/upper bass and low mids where the JH13Pro were slightly lacking.  So, assuming the JH16 demo was representative of the final sound of a full custom, I think either one is a fine choice if the associated gear works well with them.  

Larry, given your experience with all this stuff, I'm curious about something: where would you rank the new balanced portable amps (protector A or B, toucan v1 or v2) against similarly priced desktop amps, either balanced or no?  Obviously if portability is your primary concern, the portables are going to be best. But for a size/weight/AC power no object solution, I'm wondering whether something with a big power supply - either a tube amp like the Woo Audio 6, or the Jade, or an amp like the Schitt Valhalla or Matrix M-stage would be better, or whether the battery power and/or different design of these small amps actually has better synergy with the JH13s?  
 
btw- I'm not convinced that many of these sub-$1000 amps are truly balanced, or that a balanced amp would even be a good thing for the JH13s anyway (one professional review said balancing increased soundstage at the cost of detail.)  Any ideas?
 
curious to know your experience and thoughts...

 

[Spyro]

No surprise some wise guy would pull up some of my other posts and insinuate "BUT YOU SAID........NOW YOU ARE FLIP FLOPPING!"
 
Well, yes, if you want to call it that, then so be it.  Perhaps my ears aren't keen enough to really get a handle on an IEM in a short period of time.  Is it much different than buying a new car and then only after owning it a few months you really begin to understand it inside and out?   And I won't take back that JH13+Ipod Classic "sounds amazing and I am in heaven" with certain tracks.
 
If I were to do it over again I would have bought the more colored JH16.  I was afraid it would have been too bassy and not articulate enough.  Actually if I did more homework I would have realized it was the better choice "for me."  I guess I am sort-of a basshead afterall.  If you have read the reviews there seems to be equal praise for both JH13 and JH16 but most generally prefer the JH16.  I am giving you my honest assesement below but take it for what it is worth.  Again, what my preference is may not be what yours is so my comments are based on WHAT I LIKE in an IEM which has taken literally years to develop.
 
[size=small]JH13[/size]
 
WHAT IT DOES SUPERBLY:  Speed, transparency and detail.  It completely knocks it out of the park and not too many IEM's at any price can do this.
 
WHAT IT (sort of) LACKS:  Kick, energy, forgiveness.  It certainly has energy when it comes to treble but I am talking energy more related to  "rocking out".  JH5 actually beats it here.  And like I say, very dependent on recording.  I was listening to some late 80's 10,000 Maniacs recordings and while JH13 is detailed as all hell, there is something missing "oomph"-wise or emotional about the sound.  Tried the same recordings with JH5 this morning and I will say it honestly sounds better  with this particular selection of music.   Granted, these recording are quite flat to begin with so that obviously is a factor.  But then if I take a "hotter" recording that is boosted, the JH13 sounds incredible!  But this up and down feeling from track to track is annoying.  
 
2 other JH13 complaints:  Not so efficient so it will eat battery life up faster unless amping of course.   Regarding the boost Jerry put on the lower bass....sometimes it seems to just come out of nowhere and sounds separated from the rest of the presentation.  Like it was thrown in as an afterthought.  Granted without it it would clearly not have enough bass for my ears so I think its better its there but it sometimes seems disconnected with everything else.  Perhaps if he added mid-bass instead of lower bass it would be different.  Not sure.  I am using unamped with a 160GB Ipod Classic on "rock" setting but I would imagine an amp may certainly clear my complaints up but I am just not an amp guy, probably never will be.
 
Live and learn.  It's a hobby and hobbys can be expensive.
 

 

[airwax]

Hopefully, the JH16s will fill your needs Spyro. I'm sure both of them sound great, it all boils down to preference. Thankfully, for me, the JH13s has been fulfilling everything. This is an expensive hobby.

 

[goodvibes]

I was actually surprised you got the 13s instead of 16s to start with. As far as I can tell from your posts, you've always favored a fuller sound. I prefer the 13s but that's me. Maybe you got taken in by some posts that claim the 13s have a bit extra bass. Thet don't unless a couple of db below 50hz counts. I think the rock setting on your ipod is helping the bass sound a bit disconnected as 13s are all about letting you know what's going on. I think the 16s are a LOT more forgiving but for me, if I wasn't going for accurate and didn't need the the headroom, I'd be looking at some of the $600 3 and 4 driver customs with added bottom.

 

[Eric_C]

Spyro thaks for sharing that, it's actually quite helpful to hear what someone has to say about JH13 unamped.
If you do go for the 16 as a replacement, I hope they work out for you, and definitely look forward to your impressions.

 

[Spyro]

It's not literally that I don't like them, it's more that when you spend that amount of money, the sound needs to satisfy you 100%.  Maybe that's unrealistic.  I'm keeping my JH5's but I can't justify the JH16's since I am already going to take a $500 beating on the JH13 sale.  I certainly made a mistake and can only blame myself.
 
On another note, for some reason the JH5's fit better than the JH13's.  I can't see anything different visually but when fully inserted the JH13's almost tilt upwards slightly...like the nozzle is a few micrometers shorter or something.  It's not affecting the sound any and wouldn't really warrant a re-fit but there is a slight difference from my JH5 which makes me a little scared to continue with customs.
 
I am thinking more about W4 actually.  Of all the IEM's in my signature I would have to say W3 is the one that I have consistently felt the best about and literally everyone is definitively saying that W4 is even better so I am very intrigued by that. 

 

[LCeh]

Quote:

It's not literally that I don't like them, it's more that when you spend that amount of money, the sound needs to satisfy you 100%.  Maybe that's unrealistic.  I'm keeping my JH5's but I can't justify the JH16's since I am already going to take a $500 beating on the JH13 sale.  I certainly made a mistake and can only blame myself.
 
On another note, for some reason the JH5's fit better than the JH13's.  I can't see anything different visually but when fully inserted the JH13's almost tilt upwards slightly...like the nozzle is a few micrometers shorter or something.  It's not affecting the sound any and wouldn't really warrant a re-fit but there is a slight difference from my JH5 which makes me a little scared to continue with customs.
 
I am thinking more about W4 actually.  Of all the IEM's in my signature I would have to say W3 is the one that I have consistently felt the best about and literally everyone is definitively saying that W4 is even better so I am very intrigued by that. 

 
I haven't heard JH13 demos yet, so I have no idea how the JH-13 customs sound, but from what I have read, if you didn't find enough bass with those, I am not sure if you will be satisfied with the W4. Perhaps you will have to go for ES5? Since I thought the ES5 offered a fuller sound compared to the W4 when I auditioned them.

 

[AVU]

Quote:

 I would imagine an amp may certainly clear my complaints up but I am just not an amp guy, probably never will be.
 

Sorry to hear this, Spyro.  I haven't had a chance to compare the JH13 and JH16 directly, bc I found someone selling a used JH13 at a steal and just bought that.  But I will say this: the bass on my JH13 (and the sound in general) is absolutely rich and thick and amazing WHEN
 
driven out of my macbook optical
playing through Audirvana/Fidelity/Amarra
into a Sparrow A DAC/amp ($200)
 
it sounds 95% as good out of my iphone4 into the ($99) PURE ipod dock through either optical or coax, into the Sparrow A's DAC/amp.  
 
It was about 80% as good out of the iBasso D4 portable DAC/amp ($200) when using 9.6v batteries and topflight's opamp kit ($30)
 
about the same out of the iphone4 into the RSA Shadow ($350)
 
about 60% as good from my iBasso T3D ($99) out of my iphone4 (which is what I use now on the go)
 
and about 45% out of my iphone 4 directly (which I never use, since the T3D is so tiny - see my pic for the modded version 
 
All this just to say, I've found the JH13 to be heavily dependent on both source and amp power, as you would expect from any top tier headphone.  I would expect the JH16 to have a slight different sonic signature, but otherwise be similarly dependent on source and amping.
 
by the way, I never believed any of this stuff about DACs or amps before I got my JH13.  On most of my cheaper headphones and iems, it all sounded the same.  To this day, I still don't believe the hype around the TWAG cable.  I had a chance to compare a V2 Twag to my stock westone cable and actually preferred my westone.  (admittedly the v2 wasn't broken in, but still...)
 
I think you owe it to yourself to at least consider a micro amp before you lose $500 on these.  A T3D is a little over $100, less used, and the even better Pico Slim can be found for less than $300 used.  Both would make a huge difference in the bass and overall sound signature. You can actually get a dock, like mine, that literally holds the amp to the ipod, so you don't even need rubber bands or anything.
 
Just my 2cents. Best of luck to you!

 

[Oslo72]

Yes, Spyro, I  think the stock cable should be of better quality... I think I can agree on your opinions about the JH13 Pro btw. I was unsure if I would buy the JH13Pro or the JH16Pro. I went for the JH13Pro because since this is my first IEM, then I would probably be very happy with "normal" bass. But now I feel the JH13 could have more power, more musicality, so I guess the JH16Pro would be a better choice. But if i someday buy another IEM, I would probably go for another brand than JH, in order to have another sound signature.

 

[SolidVictory]

Quote:

WHAT IT (sort of) LACKS:  Kick, energy, forgiveness.  It certainly has energy when it comes to treble but I am talking energy more related to  "rocking out".  JH5 actually beats it here.  And like I say, very dependent on recording.  I was listening to some late 80's 10,000 Maniacs recordings and while JH13 is detailed as all hell, there is something missing "oomph"-wise or emotional about the sound.
 
Regarding the boost Jerry put on the lower bass....sometimes it seems to just come out of nowhere and sounds separated from the rest of the presentation.  Like it was thrown in as an afterthought.  Granted without it it would clearly not have enough bass for my ears so I think its better its there but it sometimes seems disconnected with everything else.  Perhaps if he added mid-bass instead of lower bass it would be different.

Reading this makes me realize that the JH16 would probably correct all of these attributes for you. For me, the JH16 has plenty of kick and energy--it feels like you're listening to music, not a speaker that is producing the music. I've heard the JH13 Demo and the JH16 Demo, and I can say that I definitely see a lack of fullness and energy in the JH13. Perhaps I would not realize it if I had not listened to the JH16 right afterwards, but it's definitely lacking the energy and fullness that the JH16 has.
 
Perhaps this makes the JH16 colored or "not technically correct". For me, I could care less as it just plain sounds better to my ears. Perhaps you'll have the same impression if you get the JH16. I see no lack in midrange, treble, or bass on the JH16. And I don't hear the "separation" between the deep bass and the rest of the sound spectrum as you do on my JH16.
 
I'm glad that I went ahead and purchased the JH16 over the JH13. Before my purchase, I knew that I would probably end up with the same thoughts as yourself, that the JH13 is lacking the energy and kick that I crave in my music. Luckily for me, the JH16 gets it just right, while maintaining all that wonderful detail and clarity. I would highly suggest giving the JH16 a try--it may fulfill everything that you find lacking in the JH13.
 
By the way, I don't use any EQ on my Cowon S9 with my JH16. Using even a slight EQ setting makes the JH16 sound worse than without EQ to me. The JH16 gets the music right without any EQ, which to me is what I've always wanted in an IEM.

 

[goodvibes]

If anything, I find the 16 more laid back. I found the 13 more energetic, except for the extra bass and warmth of the 16.

 

[SolidVictory]

Quote:

If anything, I find the 16 more laid back. I found the 13 more energetic, except for the extra bass and warmth of the 16.

Interesting that you say that. When I heard the JH13, I found more energy in the treble, but when I heard the JH16 I felt the energy lying in the bass and midrange, in my opinion. That to me makes the music "move" more as a cohesive picture rather than different frequencies painting a single picture.

 

[goodvibes]

 I really didn't get a long enough listen but the 16s mids seemed slightly further back than the 13s. The 16 had more bass presence and added mid warmth from it or it could be from the upper mids being a hair back. The 13 is more even and balanced. What we like is all that matters but I like the 13 and the 16 put me off a bit as it got in the way of what I knew a male vocalist sounded like. I had a recent live recording of Kurt Elling that I was at and it was just a lot more right and interesting, for me, on the 13. I don't really understand the difference between accurate and musical. If something is accurate, it's musical unless your doing something else wrong or it isn't truly correct. They're not mutually exclusive and is why I don't consider overly analytical phones to be neutral or accurate. I do consider the 13 so. If you say you don't feel the 13 is as accurate, I'm fine with that opinion but extra bass doesn't make it more cohesive, it just makes everything sound less unique.