[DavidMahler]

P.S. I listened to your Hallelujah clip, if you're referring to when he shouts it at the end.....I believe what you're hearing is tube saturation of the pre-amp to the microphone and not clipping.

 

[niemion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif P.S. I listened to your Hallelujah clip, if you're referring to when he shouts it at the end.....I believe what you're hearing is tube saturation of the pre-amp to the microphone and not clipping.

Why Andy Wallace would use tube saturation to make it "sound" like clipping is beyond me. And as this illustration from Adobe Soundbooth shows it's not the case.

The 2004 edition shows similar clipped curves.

 

[Davey]

You can't really tell from any of the waveform images you've posted whether there is clipping. They would have to be expanded to show just a few samples. Clipping would then show up as adjacent samples at the same maximum level. Just about all CD production uses hard and soft limiting on the peaks, but many do also allow clipping, some throughout since the effects of clipping sometimes aren't as bad as the artifacts due to hard limiting.

In any case, even if the digital samples don't indicate actual clipping, peaks at or near maximum can lead to distortions with many digital filters since the peak sample level isn't the true waveform peak. See "intersample peak" for more info. Sometimes you can "remaster" it with the digital level reduced by a dB or so and it will sound a little better.

 

[niemion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't really tell from any of the waveform images you've posted whether there is clipping. They would have to be expanded to show just a few samples. Clipping would then show up as adjacent samples at the same maximum level.

Like this?

 

[Keithpgdrb]

sounds fine.

 

[LFF]

Yes...there is clipping on Krall but it's not as audible.

Here is why: The mastering engineer did indeed clip the waveform but then reduced the volume so as to "remove" the clipping. The waveform is still clipped though. This is a mastering practice called "shred". Any mastering engineer doing this should be shot and quartered.

Niemion's got good ears!

EDIT: BTW, Diana Krall's CD's are poorly mastered and most either clip or exhibit shred.

EDIT 2: Just listened to the Buckley clip and it also clips. Shred here as well as actual clipping. I have never heard one of his CD's but this particular song does clip...badly.

 

[niemion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFF /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes...there is clipping on Krall but it's not as audible. Here is why: The mastering engineer did indeed clip the waveform but then reduced the volume so as to "remove" the clipping. The waveform is still clipped though. This is a mastering practice called "shred". Any mastering engineer doing this should be shot and quartered. Niemion's got good ears! EDIT: BTW, Diana Krall's CD's are poorly mastered and most either clip or exhibit shred. EDIT 2: Just listened to the Buckley clip and it also clips. Shred here as well as actual clipping. I have never heard one of his CD's but this particular song does clip...badly.

Thank you LFF, I don't think my hearing is anything out of the ordinary, quite the contrary. I am however, to say the least, at a loss for words when someone on this forum can't hear the clipping in these two songs or thinks nothing of it.

Also I didn't know that Krall's CD's had a reputation of being poorly mastered, I was of the opposite opinion.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by niemion /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you LFF, I don't think my hearing is anything out of the ordinary, quite the contrary. I am however, to say the least, at a loss for words when someone on this forum can't hear the clipping in these two songs or thinks nothing of it.

You have to understand how the human ear works. A lot of people can't hear clipping unless it is an obvious tick or very bad distortion. I'm really not too surprised most people on here couldn't hear it, especially on the Diana Krall CD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by niemion /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also I didn't know that Krall's CD's had a reputation of being poorly mastered, I was of the opposite opinion.

They don't. 99% of people are of the opposite opinion.

I am always looking out for things like this though and I hate it when great music is poorly mastered. Her last album was well mastered though.

 

[niemion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LFF /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have to understand how the human ear works. A lot of people can't hear clipping unless it is an obvious tick or very bad distortion. I'm really not too surprised most people on here couldn't hear it, especially on the Diana Krall CD. They don't. 99% of people are of the opposite opinion. I am always looking out for things like this though and I hate it when great music is poorly mastered. Her last album was well mastered though.

To me, both the Krall and the Buckley examples are very obvious, and I was actually expecting people to say something like "yeah loudness war sux, buy LP's".

Funny you should mention Quiet Nights, I'm enjoying it right now.

Is it likely that Grace (the Jeff Buckley album) on LP would be without the clipping? I'm not going to start a new thread asking this. If people don't recognizes CD clipping anyway, how on earth would they know if it's better on LP?

 

[Keithpgdrb]

having read your responses, I guess I really dont know what clipping sounds like. I have always enjoyed those albums (especially grace) for what they were. and I have pretty good ears. I clearly dont know what effect I'm listening for. I'll listen some more. hmm.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by niemion /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is it likely that Grace (the Jeff Buckley album) on LP would be without the clipping? I'm not going to start a new thread asking this. If people don't recognizes CD clipping anyway, how on earth would they know if it's better on LP?

It depends. Often times the same master is used to make the CD and the LP. You would have to find out who mastered them both and whether or not the LP is derived from the CD master.

When it's a question about modern day releases, I usually do my research first. If the answers are difficult to obtain, then I usually just try to fix the CD.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithpgdrb /img/forum/go_quote.gif having read your responses, I guess I really dont know what clipping sounds like. I have always enjoyed those albums (especially grace) for what they were. and I have pretty good ears. I clearly dont know what effect I'm listening for. I'll listen some more. hmm.

It sounds like a vinyl tick on the Krall CD and it sounds like a small tick with distortion on the Buckley CD. Listen closely in a quiet environment.

 

[niemion]

Here's another one. It sounds like clipping although looking at the graphs, everything seems to be perfect.

My Morning Jackets - Touch me I'm going to scream. The clipping-like sound is around 33,5s. The sound of something moving, pay attention to your right phone.

Now is this just how it sounds, or could it be shredding like LFF mentioned before?

 

[DavidMahler]

The clip you show is indeed clipped (no pun intended).............however, having a few wave forms clipped in the context of an album is nothing (to me anyway)........its not brickwalled at all. I don't think I've bought a CD in the past 10 years in the pop/rock genre that probably didn't have at least a few waves clipped.....i can't imagine that you hear this song and think it has "awful sound" as you say. It doesn't sound awful by any standards......maybe it's not up to the quality of certain other CDs......but its certainly well recorded, well mixed, and well mastered.

 

[LFF]

Quote:

Originally Posted by niemion /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's another one. It sounds like clipping although looking at the graphs, everything seems to be perfect. My Morning Jackets - Touch me I'm going to scream. The clipping-like sound is around 33,5s. The sound of something moving, pay attention to your right phone. Now is this just how it sounds, or could it be shredding like LFF mentioned before?

This is not shredding. It may just be a small distortion caused when recorded or caused by the synth. IMHO, this sounds just fine.