[fewtch]

OK, this is honestly not flamebait (read on)...

As a person with relatively limited means, I've spent a lot more time observing the audiophile scene than I have participating. What I've observed is there seems to be something "wrong" with the digital scene.

A typical vinyl listener will upgrade to a certain point, and typically no higher. Once the sound satisfies, they generally put their money into records after that, often developing wide-ranging music collections and broad musical horizons. Sometimes even a relatively low-end turntable is just fine (~$500 or less).

The digital scene -- I don't quite know what to make of it. Hospital grade power cords, pricey high-end IC's, super expensive players, extreme tweaks, rewiring the house, etc. When the money runs out, sometimes things veer into the 'audio voodoo' category -- degaussing/demagnetizing CD's, rubbing them with tinfoil, applying creams and oils, putting amber necklaces on top of the players, having one's CD's blessed by the Virgin Mary...

What's wrong with this picture? What are "digital-only" people chasing, and does it exist?

Why are vinyl listeners just enjoying the music for the most part, while digital people seem to have terminal upgrade-itis? It appears to me that something may be inherently wrong with digital that no tweak in the world is ever gonna fix.

If you're into digital -- are you satisfied with your current equipment and the sound of the music you're getting, or is an upgrade already on the back burner? I have a Thorens TD-160 turntable that I got for the cost of packing/shipping ($70), a $100 audio technica cartridge, and a vintage preamp I paid $42 for on Ebay. I'm quite happy with my setup, and I have no plans to upgrade for the forseeable future. There's nothing wrong with the music! It sounds organic and real -- like music is supposed to. Afaic, there's little I could do to increase my musical enjoyment at this point.

So anyway -- just wondering about this dichotomy, and what's up with digital. If it measures so much better than analog, why are digital listeners rarely satisfied, and analog listeners usually are?

 

[TravelLite]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch So anyway -- just wondering about this dichotomy, and what's up with digital. If it measures so much better than analog, why are digital listeners rarely satisfied, and analog listeners usually are?

Because (contemporary) digital users (with very, very few exceptions) refuse to embrace modern, state-of-the-art signal processing!

Again, with very few exceptions, digital users (currently) seem utterly and completely oblivious to the almost unbelievable power that lays at their very feet!

How's that for a bold statement? ROFL!

TravelLite

 

[blessingx]

Not sure fewtch, your experiences are exactly opposite of mine (though mine is a limited group). The typical digital listener I know is using some $40 CDP, $99 Best Buy stereo, or playing 128 kbps MP3's through their computer. If we're talking the subgroup of people who seem to care about audio and spend a few bucks to get there (which I assume you're refering to), the only two people I know with any substancial vinyl, have out spent everyone else I know by a factor of three. They are who I first learned about tube amps, IC's, and tiny $150 pyramids to put under a stands feet. They both say they can't stand MP3's (though not sure either has heard one), say CD's are barely tolerable, and have Audiophile Magazine collections going back years. I respect both their opinions greatly on equipment (and one of them is at least partially responsible for me being here), but not sure either of them are just "enjoying the music" more than another of my friends, who thinks encoding MP3's at 192 kbps is wasting space on his iPod.

 

[minya]

I guess you've never seen people with $75k turntables and $20k phono stages and fdgafdjksfjskd etc.

Digital is the best thing ever. Sounds wonderful, is ultra-convenient, and never degrades.

(>95% of the music I listen to is created, recorded, and produced entirely in the digital domain)

- Chris

 

[gpalmer]

I'm guessing that since the digital users don't have the rituals of constantly cleaning and flipping records and tweaking their VTA and such, they need something to tweak!

 

[j-curve]

1. Once someone has chosen, assembled, adjusted & tweaked a turntable they have an intricate appreciation of what it is doing and how it achieves it. With digital there's more of a BBVF (black-box voodoo factor).

2. Turntables are a mature technology so there are fewer new products being released and they tend to be variations on a theme. Digital products are still evolving and merging new technologies, so there are plenty of new and different boxes available.

3. Marketers of digital products exploit the BBVF to make consumers feel that they might be missing out on something.

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by j-curve 1. Once someone has chosen, assembled, adjusted & tweaked a turntable they have an intricate appreciation of what it is doing and how it achieves it. With digital there's more of a BBVF (black-box voodoo factor). 2. Turntables are a mature technology so there are fewer new products being released and they tend to be variations on a theme. Digital products are still evolving and merging new technologies, so there are plenty of new and different boxes available. 3. Marketers of digital products exploit the BBVF to make consumers feel that they might be missing out on something.

The turntable manufacturers have jumped on the Voodoo wagon as well. There were actually 229 new digital products introduced at CES in January and 182 new analog(specifically vinyl) products introduced. When I say products I'm using the definition of "playback instruments" as used in the CEDIA guide.

Analog fans have been quick to upgrade recently as have been digital lovers. Digital has it much worse and the sonic differences seem much smaller to me. I would hate to have to make the choice of high-end digital purchases right now. Before the ink dries on the latest greatest digital product,there is something coming along that is supposed to be "better" in some way.

I still say any true high-end audio system needs a vinyl rig. That's just my opinion but I feel very strongly about it. We all should just try to enjoy music more.

 

[Koui]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberoller I still say any true high-end audio system needs a vinyl rig. That's just my opinion but I feel very strongly about it. We all should just try to enjoy music more.

With all the renewed interest in vinyl these days, it still amazes me that audiophiles tend to overlook the 'best' analog format - open reel tape. I'd rather listen to a 15 or 7.5ips copy of a pre-recorded or master tape than any turntable/cartridge/record or digital source.

 

[j-curve]

Quote:

Tuberoller: There were actually 229 new digital products introduced at CES in January and 182 new analog(specifically vinyl) products introduced. When I say products I'm using the definition of "playback instruments" as used in the CEDIA guide.

That's a remarkable statistic for analog. Are turntables, arms and cartridges all counted as separate playback instruments?

 

[Tuberoller]

Quote:

Originally posted by j-curve That's a remarkable statistic for analog. Are turntables, arms and cartridges all counted as separate playback instruments?

Yes, arms,cartridges,tables and peripherals ae counted seperately. Complete packages are counted as one product. Digital is counted as playback products only,not recording devices or dual purpose devices.

 

[redshifter]

hi fewtch,
i have a slightly better analog rig than yours, and love the vinyl sound. my biggest frustration is the lack of quality control in new vinyl. i have had the worst luck getting new records--they are either warped, or with scratches(??), or crushed jackets (shipped). or buying old vinyl (and paying premium price sometimes for 1st issues) only to find a catastrophic scratch unseen to the eye. plus a vpi or ng record cleaner never seems to make it on my budget each year.

these things have cooled my love of vinyl.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by redshifter hi fewtch, i have a slightly better analog rig than yours, and love the vinyl sound. my biggest frustration is the lack of quality control in new vinyl. i have had the worst luck getting new records--they are either warped, or with scratches(??), or crushed jackets (shipped). or buying old vinyl (and paying premium price sometimes for 1st issues) only to find a catastrophic scratch unseen to the eye. plus a vpi or ng record cleaner never seems to make it on my budget each year. these things have cooled my love of vinyl.

Yeah, I can related to a certain extent. Vinyl is a humongous pain in the tail in many (most?) ways, although I haven't had that bad luck with records (I buy about 80% used, 20% NOS and zero new releases -- can't complain too loudly at ~ 25 cents to $2.98/LP for used stuff). Yet it is a pain in the arse in numerous respects.

But the sound...

 

[Calanctus]

Quote:

Originally posted by TravelLite Because (contemporary) digital users (with very, very few exceptions) refuse to embrace modern, state-of-the-art signal processing! Again, with very few exceptions, digital users (currently) seem utterly and completely oblivious to the almost unbelievable power that lays at their very feet! How's that for a bold statement? ROFL! TravelLite

TravelLite, are you referring to equalization ('tone controls')?

 

[TravelLite]

Quote:

Originally posted by Calanctus TravelLite, are you referring to equalization ('tone controls')?

Calanctus, I'm really referring to an entire class of modern outboard gear that's currently the exclusive domain of professional "content creators".

My POV and experience have led me to the conclusion that many of these (relatively affordable) devices have been completely overlooked by "content consumers" for use in their playback systems. IMO, the best of these are truly the sonic equivalent of "rocket ships" in terms of what they can do and the way they do it.

The following is how I classify or "think about" signal processors in general. I drew-up this list only for convenience, since form and function are often duplicated between groups. In other words, some of the following groupings are "generic", others are commercial implementations and vary significantly depending on the manufacturer.

1. [size=xx-small][/size][size=xx-small]
2. graphic equalizers / parametric equalizers
3. dynamic equalizers / de-essers
4. compressors / limiters
5. expanders / gates
6. mastering processors
7. broadcasting processors
8. reverb / multi-effects processors
9. loudspeaker / PA management systems
10. sub-harmonic synthesizers - operate with caution!
11. stereo enhancers / psycho-acoustic processors [/size]
12. [size=xx-small]unique devices, e.g., Aphex Model 204[/size]

I hope to eventually post in some detail here on Head-Fi about my recent experiences with signal processing and home audio, but I haven't even begun to think about how to approach the subject, LOL.

TravelLite

 

[fewtch]

I've thought about using expander plugin with my vinyl --> digital recordings to get rid of groove scrub noise and low level rumble... never did get around to it tho, and I haven't done much "ripping" lately.

Wonder if an expander would be good for general vinyl listening as well, used in this way... is there such a thing an an analog expander though, or are they always digital?