[9pintube]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cAsE sEnSiTiVe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I want to hear how it was recorded. If the musicians were recorded on a large stage, say Carnegie Hall, I want to experience that spread, depth of image, and of course all the wonderful acoustics that great venue provides. If the musicians crowded into the mens room at O'Hare airport to jam, I want to hear the lack of spread, as well as the resultant slap echo that comes 2nd nature to a truly rotten recording environment. If a pair of headphones - or any gear for that matter - doesn't show me that differences in that manner, then I'm not interested in spending time with them.

2nd that OPINION! and I will add,IMO A natural recording should, if your equip. is set up right along with your rm. fill your front wall with the musicians in front of you, sounding as if they're playing live! Remember the days when they use to pan from speaker to speaker???

 

[rhythmdevils]

I like naturally large soundstage. My HP3000 had a huge, but very natural 3D soundstage. It could put notes very far away, but it could also put notes very close. I don't like the artificial sounding large soundstage, where every note is shoved far away no matter what, and you get the "wall of sound" affect, ala K701. (oh no he didn't just diss the best headphone evar)

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n3rdling /img/forum/go_quote.gif it's the combination of never changing soundstages and diffuse imaging that drives me bonkers

What do you mean by diffuse imaging?

As in, it places notes far apart in terms of left/right? Or..?

Sorry its late so the brain isnt functioning and I want answers now

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Uthadude /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm confused. I realize the keys to the lower notes on a piano are on the left side of the keyboard, but I've never felt the lower notes stayed on the left and the higher notes stayed on the right when at a piano recital or concert. They come at me as a whole. Do you mean some recordings separate the high notes and low notes into different sides of the recording/channel? If so, that would be weird. .

I can imagine this might make a difference on an organ, depending on the organ builder, but unless it's a recording of an instrument you've played yourself of a piece you play you likely wouldn't notice even then. Maybe a harpsichord would have a slight left/right difference on a recording (since a harpsichord is traditionally played with one's back to the audience), but pianos have been played in profile to the audience since Franz Liszt (because he thought he had an attractive profile. Seriously.).

Wouldn't you have to have the recording mikes inside the piano to really notice a left/right spatial difference on a recording? After all, all the strings project onto the same lid.

 

[Pianist]

I also can't stand imprecise imaging. For this reason, I can't stand listening to many mid-fi/low-fi dynamic headphones and dynamic IEMs in stereo. I only listen to them with one ear in which case soundstage and imaging doesn't matter. lol For listening in stereo, I only like balanced armature IEMs or high-fi level full sized cans with great imaging.

 

[Graphicism]

At one point I put soundstage above everything else; a large presence to bridge the gap between speakers and headphones, or even real life and headphones. This forefront thinking came from listening to binaural recordings and so I looked to recreate this sound with my regular stereophonic music files.

I first posted The quest for soundstage! - To discuss different recordings, Dolby headphone and how if at all possible we can bridge the gap. After some playing around with different 'surround setups' I went on to post the 5.1 Headphone experience which a few members here who were also looking for a larger musical presence found useful. This in hindsight led me to believe headphone soundstage was artificial, be it directly from a headphone such as a the K701/2 or a shallow canned headphone with the software setup.

Well anyway some time later I gotta say music/instrumental separation is far more important and accurate for headphone listening than artificial soundstage. Maybe in the near future you'll be able to listen to headphones and be completely emerged in the environment; in other words hear zero difference between listening to Yo-Yo Ma on headphones and sat front row in an Orchestra Hall listening to his live performance. But we just aren't there yet, so I deduce, soundstage is the repercussion of deficient instrument separation.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aristos_achaion /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wouldn't you have to have the recording mikes inside the piano to really notice a left/right spatial difference on a recording? After all, all the strings project onto the same lid.

That's generally how it is done; either just above the cavity in an upright, or in a little hole towards the back (it sort of goes into a box like an acoustic guitar, I guess) of a grand piano (or above the strings if you are so inclined).

You will generally have more than one mic on the piano (about three would be normal I suppose for a piano-centric gig, but just one where pianing is merely backing).

You're looking at 3 at least for drums (kick, overhead, near the snare).

 

[Shike]

Sometimes I like precise, but I usually like a really large soundstage. I use my DH-1 a lot due to this . . .

 

[n3rdling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif What do you mean by diffuse imaging? As in, it places notes far apart in terms of left/right? Or..? Sorry its late so the brain isnt functioning and I want answers now

It is a bit odd to describe, but diffuse imaging to me is what I'd describe as a blur between the outlines of sounds. Every sound should take up a very specific area in the soundstage instead of a general area. If you hear a headphone with killer imaging like the O2, it sounds as if every sound is cut out of the air with razor sharp precision. On most headphones, you can hear where different sounds are coming from, but the outlines of those sounds isn't very well defined.
An interesting aside, it seems image precision and soundstage size are usually related: headphones with huge soundstages often have diffuse imaging, and headphones that are better at imaging have smaller soundstages. This is by no means set in stone and there are radical outliers such as the Qualia and R10 which have very large soundstages and imaging better than most headphones still.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe in the near future you'll be able to listen to headphones and be completely emerged in the environment;

Not gonna happen, ever heard of HRTF?

Quote:

But we just aren't there yet, so I deduce, soundstage is the repercussion of deficient instrument separation.

To answer my own question (above), I guess you have not.
Spare us with such deductions.

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n3rdling /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is by no means set in stone and there are radical outliers such as the Qualia and R10 which have very large soundstages and imaging better than most headphones still.

The argument could be made that the imaging is so precise subsequently the soundstage supersedes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not gonna happen, ever heard of HRTF?

Never say never. We have to be humble in thinking; just because we can't currently conceive it doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif The argument could be made that the imaging is so precise subsequently the soundstage supersedes. Never say never. We have to be humble in thinking; just because we can't currently conceive it doesn't mean it's impossible.

I think if sound stage is that important to someone they need to buy speakers instead of headphones.

 

[jjinh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't like the artificial sounding large soundstage, where every note is shoved far away no matter what, and you get the "wall of sound" affect, ala K701. (oh no he didn't just diss the best headphone evar)

I dont care all that much about sound stage, and what you have noted is one reason why I couldnt stand my k701s.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just wondering. I find myself quite partial to small, precise soundstages. I prefer it over larger, imprecise soundstages, anyway

I prefer the correct reproduction of the soundstage that exists on the recording. For this you need loudspeakers.

 

[aristos_achaion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's generally how it is done; either just above the cavity in an upright, or in a little hole towards the back (it sort of goes into a box like an acoustic guitar, I guess) of a grand piano (or above the strings if you are so inclined). You will generally have more than one mic on the piano (about three would be normal I suppose for a piano-centric gig, but just one where pianing is merely backing). You're looking at 3 at least for drums (kick, overhead, near the snare).

Oh, you're talking about Jazz piano! Classical would normally use mikes out in the concert hall (at least, whenever I made recordings, before I gave up piano, it was done like that), meaning that the piano would, relatively speaking, be a single point in the soundstage.