Is the 650's bass bloated?
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Asterix

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I am enjoying my HD650's/Silver Dragon with my Luxman amp and 1212M as source, and while it's certainly a nice sound, the bass seems a little loose. I can live with it but I just thought I'd say something since I think it has been brought up before.
 
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recstar24

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yup, the bass is a little bloated for my tastes, other people would say its right or "textured" - but for me, its just a bit wooly but lacks the prat of the rs-1's somewhat wooly bass. 650's weren't for me in the end, so i got rid of them lol. The hp2's have replaced the 650's in my rig and i couldn't be happier
 
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Andrea

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No. It's full bodied, rounded; yet extremely quick, hence the excellent texture.

Driven by a 400 ohm or so impedance amp, though, it'll probably be.
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea
No. It's full bodied, rounded; yet extremely quick, hence the excellent texture.

Driven by a 400 ohm or so impedance amp, though, it'll probably be.



Okay, first of all, I don't even know if the impedence on my amp is 440ohms. That's just what I gathered from the schematic but I am not a technician. Secondly, I actually have been noticing this side of the story as well in my listening. On one hand, the bass seems sloppy, but upon careful listening it is actually very quick, tight, and resolute, but just has a lot of decay. And yea, it is full-bodied and rounded. I enjoy it but I do not think it is necessarily very accurate. But if I wanted accuracy, I'd probably go back to the 600's...
 
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I'm not familiar with the Luxman, but since it is an integrated amp and not a dedicated headphone amp, I'd assume that the outpout impedence is rather high. You might want to try the 650s with a headphone amp with near 0 output impedence -- you might find that the 650s are no longer bloated. Personally, I found the 650 bass to be a bit overpowering, but I don't think I'd describe it as bloated. (fyi, my impressions of the 650 are with the Prehead and Gilmore v.1, mainly).
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by acs236
I'm not familiar with the Luxman, but since it is an integrated amp and not a dedicated headphone amp, I'd assume that the outpout impedence is rather high. You might want to try the 650s with a headphone amp with near 0 output impedence -- you might find that the 650s are no longer bloated. Personally, I found the 650 bass to be a bit overpowering, but I don't think I'd describe it as bloated.


I used to use the 650's/Zu with a MG Head ASL Mark III DT/OTL and in that setup, now that I think about it, the bass did not seem overpowering in any way. It was just really deep and strong, but it did not seem bloated. So maybe you are right, it's my amp. Too bad, since it's such a nice amp for speakers.
It's not a terrible problem though, and was worse with my 600's.

Is there some reason they can't build an integrated with a good headphone jack? I seriously doubt Luxman took the cheap route on this one.
 
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Andrea

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Asterix
Is there some reason they can't build an integrated with a good headphone jack? I seriously doubt Luxman took the cheap route on this one.


Well, yep, there's a specific reason that doesn't directly concern the 'quality' of the amp but rather the interfacing with headphones. Headphones have far higher sensitivity, and contemporarily far lower power handling than speakers, which leads to a technically forced "downgrade" of the audio signal [unless a separate amp specific for headphones was used for the headphone out -- but this is rather rare with even high class integrated amps which are supposed to be humiliated by devoting them to a headphone
] to obtain a mere technical compatibility with headphones -- thus compromising the "quality" as a side-effect.
 
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asterix,

if you really want to maximize your 650's with the luxman, i would suggest making your own cable to hook directly to the amp's speaker outputs. There's a schematic somewhere around here and its not too dificult, all it requires is that the proper resistors are used to match with the power output of your luxman, i would imagine it would probably sound better than out of the headphone jack as well, with all that tube power driving your 650's that should sound real nice, tighten up the bass a bit but the soundscape and imagine would be something to behold
 
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To give a worthless opinion here
since I have very limited headphone experience out side of the Senn product line, I would not describe 650s bass bloated nor overpowered.

It can from time to time give an impression of having a wandering, and perhaps then, over powered lowest octaves. As far as I am concerned, the 650 is then not the culprit but another part of the audio chain, e.g. an amplifier or IC cables.

AFAIC, the 650 is capable of a very good bass response, especially excelling when reproducing orchestral classical music, spatial cues and ambience. These cans need to be driven with tight reins though, and some controlled and serious juice to move all that air. Several posts have already pointed in that direction.

Especially with a good amp, the 650 reproduces a thunderous bass, with depth, dimensions and seemingly bottomless extension. However, I would not go so far as describing it as slow, but lightning fast, it is not.
 
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HD650 has not bloated bass. I think they don't have bloated bass also connected to a simple integrated amp, because they don't have very low impedance.

I think their bass can be sometimes a little bit too strong for someone.
For example I prefer the slightly less bassier DT880 (it is a little thing, not very much difference in the quantity of the bass, IMHO, nor in the extension, some in the "texture"), although I could live very well with the HD650 bass. Which is, for what I've heard, one of the best bass you can achieve in a dynamic headphones, on pair with the DT880 and flatted-pads Grado Rs-1. Maybe not the most quick in the world, but it is nearly impossible to achieve this extension and power having also a "fulminous" bass.
Of the cans I've heard, I think that only the HD650, the DT880 and the Stax OmegaII have given me a totally full bodied and extended organ pedal, so to make you to "feel" the bass in an impressive way, despite they are headphones and not speaker. 20 Hz really flat are not a joke and not so common to hear.

Andrea

PS. the underlines are a gift for Andrea
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by recstar24
making your own cable to hook directly to the amp's speaker outputs. There's a schematic somewhere around here and its not too dificult, all it requires is that the proper resistors are used to match with the power output of your luxman, i would imagine it would probably sound better than out of the headphone jack as well


I did try the resistor network to tame boomy bass and re-utilize nak receiver ... no can do. Still 'much better' bass from dedicated phones amp, imo.

The one integrated that I found to have acceptable bass level is Audiolab (with phones output from power section, not op amp).


Edited to include quotes above. Jeez this place is running too fast.


Btw my opinion on 650 bass : .... just perfect. Although I prefer hd280's and ultrasone's slam. Now that's real cans shaking bass.
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man
I did try the resistor network to tame boomy bass and re-utilize nak receiver ... no can do. Still 'much better' bass from dedicated phones amp, imo.

The one integrated that I found have acceptable bass level is Audiolab (with phones output from power section, not op amp).



Thanks for clarifying, i guess dedicated is the way to go.

650's through balanced seems to be getting lots of rave reviews, where the bloated bass is definitely not an issue, where its tight, tuneful, and very fast, the 650's are beasts of burdens that simply scale better and better with every upgrade you throw at it, its like you never know how good it can get because it can always get better, we're talking with a high end source and balanced amplification, and who knows it could probably get even better
 
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Andrea

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Quote:

Originally Posted by amartignano
PS. the underlines are a gift for Andrea



And it was wise of you indeed, because I was just going to double Nak Man
... the 650's bass is just 'perfect' for me, even if my judgment implies a slight effort of imagination, as I'm temporarily having it 'fed' by an integrated amp
...
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea
And it was wise of you indeed, because I was just going to double Nak Man
... the 650's bass is just 'perfect' for me, even if my judgment implies a slight effort of imagination, as I'm temporarily having it 'fed' by an integrated amp
...



The HD650 "fedded" with an amp quick and clear (still neutral) like the Rp3 I had, has nearly a perfect bass. You know, is not the bass that my tastes/ears didn't like of the HD650... it was a "bad feeling" in other regions.


Ciao
Andrea
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man
Btw my opinion on 650 bass : .... just perfect. Although I prefer hd280's and ultrasone's slam. Now that's real cans shaking bass.



The HD280 has sometimes a "frightening" bass: a little shy in the mid-bass and increasing as they go lower. Truly frightening sometimes.
 
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