[borizm]

Despite my previous mixed feeling about musicality of ES9018 based on the experience with entry-level Audio-GD DAC+headamp (no-loopback, no-opamp, A-class output), I must confess that I have recently bought old flagship-killer: Meizu MX4 Pro phablet/smartphon with mobile version of ES9018 and this small device have surprised me a lot in a positive way. Meizu MX4 Pro sounds really natural without any observed technical sounding artifacts. The sound is sometimes a little too bright, but in acceptable way (not an irritatning-brite). Sounds much better than ES9023 based, cheap, but quite good SMSL M2 (USB DAC) on the line-out (headamp in it sounds in little technical, dirty-like way and can't be fully accepted in the long term, so it's wise to skip it).
Meizu MX4 Pro can drive various of the headphone types including including even 8 Ohm DT48, 50 Ohm HE-6 to quite enough loud level, and very easily all 250 and 600 Ohms. The SQ is really good - maybe not as good and realistic as in case in old multibit DACs and no-loopback discrete approach with deep A-class output stage, but good enough, I can risk that it's event can be described as a superior SQ in a category of such a small devices.

 

[tf10charged]

I guess thats why orpheus doesnt come with a dac and amp then.

Oh wait. Why does it still comes with a dac and amp.....hmmmmm

 

[JIGF]

 
Which 1704 DAC was that?

 
the TI PCM1704

 

[jusbe]

the TI PCM1704

Sure. No, I meant which convertor? Sorry if I was not clear.

 

[Happy Camper]

I didn't read through all of this thread but we are told there is no bearing on sonics in the digital realm. It's in the analog area that you impact sonics. This is why the mention of implementation being the key. So please explain why the DAC impacts the sound? I've heard it said each maker has a house sound.

 

[borizm]

You probably right with "Tube DAC".
I've already modified a few CDPs (all of them had 2x PCM56/61 or better) by removing all op-amps and providing some discrete I/V similar in sound signature to a tube. Of course doing something with a typical OS was a second crucial part of the modification - for me it was the best to remove and create the NOS or put some better OS IC. Sounds fantastic.
 
About WM8741 I'm not sure - sounds too much technical to me, or it was a bad design which I've heard. WM8741 is a "voltage output" DAC, so it has 4 op-amps (or similar staff) build-in in it and there in not a possibility to improve it. Low voltage and "voltage output" makes me worry about possible SQ result even after the perfect modification.
 
I wouldn't put TDA1541 and WM8741 to the same basked for the other reason.
TDA1541 is a multibit R2R, NOS, Iout, 16bit (not very linear, but very natural), and WM8741 is a delta-sigma (less natural by the design), with some OS build-in (can have a signature determined by OS), 24 bit (more precise).

 

[dharma]

would this and similar be somehow useful? https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/r2r-for-the-rest-of-us/

 

[therealbene]

now that Sabre has released the new 9038 PRO series, the 9018 is no longer the best, by definition.

 

[FFBookman]

9038? Fuhgettaboutit!
 

 

[FFBookman]

  Despite my previous mixed feeling about musicality of ES9018 based on the experience with entry-level Audio-GD DAC+headamp (no-loopback, no-opamp, A-class output), I must confess that I have recently bought old flagship-killer: Meizu MX4 Pro phablet/smartphon with mobile version of ES9018 and this small device have surprised me a lot in a positive way. Meizu MX4 Pro sounds really natural without any observed technical sounding artifacts. The sound is sometimes a little too bright, but in acceptable way (not an irritatning-brite). Sounds much better than ES9023 based, cheap, but quite good SMSL M2 (USB DAC) on the line-out (headamp in it sounds in little technical, dirty-like way and can't be fully accepted in the long term, so it's wise to skip it).
Meizu MX4 Pro can drive various of the headphone types including including even 8 Ohm DT48, 50 Ohm HE-6 to quite enough loud level, and very easily all 250 and 600 Ohms. The SQ is really good - maybe not as good and realistic as in case in old multibit DACs and no-loopback discrete approach with deep A-class output stage, but good enough, I can risk that it's event can be described as a superior SQ in a category of such a small devices.

Borizm thanks for the posts, I'm learning a lot and I really enjoy your point of view.
 
You sound like you work in the industry so I'm wondering if you've heard Charlie Hansen from Ayre describe how he and his company design their audio products. It's fascinating to me as a developer/designer (not of audio gear) as well as a listener, since the SQ of the ponoplayer blows me away at that price point. 
 
He said they have built their own extensive suite of listening tests that are not like typical AB or ABX tests, and demands all his engineers select components after spending hours if not days doing these long-term listening tests. The entire build is dictated by the results of these organic listening tests over specs, scopes, or outside recommendations/biases. 
 
They basically work under the credo to trust your ears only, but only after an extensive and accurate listening to the component/circuit.
 
The credo is played out in their finished products by removing most options and dials.  Many Ayre products will have 1 setting, or at minimum hide away the controls. 
 
After some internal debate they even made a product that had 2 settings - the variables as decided by the ears, and the variables as decided by the spec sheet. A proof of concept.
 
I can't afford any of their products except the ponoplayer, so this is philosophical for me. Since you work with these types of components so closely, whats your take on this Ayre style of circuit design?  It reminds me of instrument builders - they almost always use their ears and other senses to play the instrument as it's being created.

 

[Kalemkolik]

Hello
 
are which model better Hi-Fi DAC ES9028C2M (LG G5 HİFİ) and ESS Sabre 9018C2M (V10) ? 

 

[GUTB]

After a lengthy wait, I finally got my DIY builder's DAC from China based on the 9018. It's got dual transformers for analog and digital circuits, high-end op-amps, WIMA, ELNA and Nichicon caps, 0.5 ppm clock. XMOS board. Listening to it right now via WASAPI push through a Wyrd. My initial reaction: sound is COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to my Modi 2 Uber. I have a noisy Pioneer VSX-816 amp powering TH900s.
 
Will need to go through a burn-in period. There should be some differences between a 9018 and an AK4396 that aren't being masked by a cheap amp...besides the periodic BEEP tones that are coming through.

 

[Ecoli]

So the question is which is currently the best dac chip?

 

[Soundsgoodtome]

For those that are interested in R2R, here are impressions from an ongoing tour I've arranged on a non-oversampling tube buffered R2R DAC. I find these DACs (Stockholm and Pagoda) to be a top performer in it's price range. DS d/a chips sound very sterile in comparison, not because of the tube but the details that's lost in the attack/decay due to DS filters. Impressions are on the very bottom and as the tour continues, more will show up.

Just to add to the convo and something else for you guys to read:
 

Spoiler: My intro on this tour:

  Hello Head-Fi community, being a part of this site for some time now and expanding my musical journey as well as the different gear I've been able to listen to; I figured closing in on 5000 posts it would be a great time to put together a tour for one of the best discoveries I've made upon joining the hobby years ago. Looking at my list of gear on my profile will show you I've gone through quite a bit sources, phones, amps. Many I've thoroughly enjoyed through the sonic journeys. Up until today, one discovery in the journey I've made are the MHDT line of DACs. With very little coverage of this DAC, I offer to tour a self-purchased Stockholm V2 to share this little known gem of a company.

 

Spoiler: A bit about MHDT Labs:

MHDT Labs, a Taiwan based company, started producing their own multi-bit/R2R DACs in seeking pleasing but accurate sound to the 4 founders of the company. Their earlier models, Constantine and Paradisea, were some of the most musical DACs I've heard but without sacrificing a whole lot in detail and resolution. Fast forward some 10 years and they now offer several models ranging from AD R2R chips to the more common PCM1704.

The name MHDT comes from an acronym of the original 4 founders and the first letter of their Zodiac signs (Mouse, Horse, Dog, and Tiger). The acronym meaning was later changed to Music Heaven Development Team but given the time of the year and that Lunar New Year is upon us (Feb 7th on this side of the globe), I would prefer the original meaning of the acronyms of the name.

The original focus of the company is to create a musically pleasing sound that catered to the liking of the founders. What it has evolved into is an accurate recreation of sound and timbre of instruments and vocals while remaining musical to ones ears. Searching around the net will yield many reviews from many in the speaker side of audio but using these DACs with headphones has shown the amazing accuracy they're able to reproduce from the digital files.

A little disclaimer: their website is a bit of a throwback in terms of layout, just part of the company charm I suppose. Most e-mails are answered directly by Jiun himself and I believe the company while creating fantastic sounding DACs, may be a bit slow on the response as it is a smaller company compared to Audio-GD. That should not detract you from the company, however keep in mind if you do make inquiries. Lastly I'm not associated or affiliated with the company, just another enthusiast who really likes the products.

 
 
 

Spoiler: Why the MHDT Labs Stockholm V2?

There are several models in the MHDT Labs lineup and after a recent comparison between the Paradisea 3 (discontinued), Havana 2, and Pagoda, I've come to the conclusion that the Stockholm V2, which can be said to be the latest iteration of the Havana line using the PCM56P-J R2R chip minus the use of the internal opamp, would be a great candidate to tour as not only does it represent the MHDT house sound it also takes the level of clarity above previous models without sacrificing the lineage signature. I also own the Pagoda which does offer a level of clarity above the other units but at the sacrifice of some of the musicality and timbre that the company has well crafted into their signature, consider the Pagoda as the one-off in terms of of fitting into an 'audiophile' signature by straying from the house sound.

The Stockholm V2 is a non-oversampling tube buffered DAC that can handle files up to an 'audiophile' 24-bit 192khz but downsamples this signal internally to 16-bit which is then turned into an analog signal via the Ti/BB PCM56P-J chips. While the DAC is NOS and tube buffered, the DAC is not slouchy or heavy in color but only hints in warmth and has a sense realism in sound I've not heard in other gear.

 
MHDT Labs Stockholm V2:
non-oversampling R2R DAC with a tube buffer. Complete discreet output with no opamps or digital filters.

 
Comes with GE 5670 stock tube but tour unit will be fitted with Bendix 2C51 NOS tube for better performance.

 
Unit is configured for 115V usage (switchable via jumpers to 230V)

 
Dual BB PCM56P-J with tube output buffer. Design output discrete with no opamps or filters in path.

 
Inputs are up to 24/192khz files via USB, Optical, RCA, or BNC spdif:

 

Quote:

2) @Barra - WA  Impressions here and here
3) @Torq - WA Impressions here
March
4) @grizzlybeast - OR Impressions here

 

[b0bb]

So the question is which is currently the best dac chip?

 
The ES9018 has the potential, depending on how it is implemented, including the surrounding support logic.
 
I set out to understand this a little better and rebuilt and modded 2 ES9018 implementations.
 
The first one is the Yulong DA8 MkI and the other a dual Sabre32 LKS MH-DA003
 
The Yulong is a pretty close implementation to the reference design from ESS, out of the box, is a poster child for most of the common complaints directed at this DAC. I call this the "textbook" version of the ES9018, as I describe below, textbooks sometimes leave out some of the important stuff.
 
I was curious to see if some of these issues can be fixed up and indeed it can.
The main mod was to introduce a low phase noise clock from Crystek, this took care of most of the indistinct flabby bass issues and made the presentation less sterile.
In order to improve the soundstage I added discrete voltage regulators from Belleson, this considerably improved the transient handling especially the definition of the  bass transients.
 
It was interesting to note Yulong added a similar Crystek XO to the DA8 MkII, which came out about 8 months after I made the mod.
 
The main limitation of the Yulong was the use of low cost SMT components for the analog filter, the ceramic caps and SMT resistors do not make for a good sounding DAC in my opinion.
It leaves no room to make any improvements.
This leads to my point of the dependence on implementation, overall pretty average DAC, very typical of the presentation of the  ES9018 and reinforces some of the negative impressions of DS DACs in general.
 
More details here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/699772/yulong-a28/195#post_11621683
http://www.head-fi.org/t/673033/review-yulong-audio-sabre-da8-reference-dac/1470
 
The second attempt with the LKS produced much more desirable results, this is a Dual Sabre32 with a low phase-noise Crystek XO and a galvanically isolated USB input.
Shunt regulators were used fro the analog side with the separate power supplies to the various digital parts of the DAC
 
Out of the box it was sonically superior to the Yulong DA8  including the one I modded, quite untypical for a Sabre32 DAC, it shared more in common with my R2R DACS like the Schiit Yggy and my Esoteric D10 with Dual TDA1541A .
It is about 10% more expensive than the Yulong when I bought it.
 
This goes back to increased attention to implementation details yields improved performance with the ES9018.
The basic LKS is overbuilt and the analog stage used quality components like Film Polyproplyene Caps and MELF metal film resistors, these are conventional resistors without the leads for SMT mounting.
 
Rebuilding the DAC showed me the possibilities on how far the performance of  ES9018 can be taken to.
 
About half of the DAC has been rebuilt starting with the analog stage, the critical I/V opamp was replaced with a discrete unit capable of handling the current from the ES9018 operating  in Class-A most of the time.
 
The I/V resistor was replaced  with a precision Vishay metal foil resistor with a 0.05% tolerance, this improves the DC precision to 12bits, most of the common DACs use lower quality components with a tolerance of 1% or worse, this is critical in the ES9018 as the standard implementation requires 2 I/V converters per channel for a 4 in total.
This was vast improvement and has convinced me to stump up for the cash to have of 0.001% resistors custom made, this brings up the precision to 16-17bits.
 
The USB interface was next, both LKS and Yulong use the interface made by Amanero in Italy, however LKS made available an enhanced version with Crystek low phase noise XOs and a low noise power supply to keep the XO performing to their max potential.
A simple upgrade that moved the sound stage a few steps forward, plus it eliminated most the inconsistent performance we sometimes get from USB Audio, especially the high frequency glare and sterility.
This comes back to the point of implementation, the LKS was better implemented to start with and opened up greater possibilities to improve its default state of implementation.
 
The heart of the Sabre32 is the Masterclock and PLL reclocker, as my modification of the Yulong showed, a good low phase noise XO will transform the pedestrian sound quality to something quite acceptable.
LKS implemented the DAC in a similar fashion and used a Crystek XO as stock, however LKS implemented a dedicated low noise regulator for the clock and the stock performance was considerably better because of that.
LKS used a regulator than can supply enough power for a miniature Ovenized XO (OCXO),  without this foresight on the part of LKS, I would not have been able to take the LKS to the next step.
 
The Yggy struggles to keep up with the modified LKS. The modifications in themselves improves upon the existing work LKS has done.
 
In summary it boils to attention to details of the implementation with the ES9018, and I can appreciate why Accuphase and Gryphon have chosen the ES9018 as the basis of their DACs.
 
More details here:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003/15#post_11668439
http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003/60#post_11954317
http://www.head-fi.org/t/745032/lks-audio-mh-da003/195#post_12454476