Is it worth using nice wire for the ground channel?
Sep 6, 2009 at 3:47 PM Post #46 of 53

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
548
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
How is the left and right signal not independent from one another?


Who said anything about left and right signals?

Why do you keep doing this? You did it first when you went on about "one wire" when no one was talking about one wire. Now you're talking about left and right channels when no one was talking about left and right channels.

Are you just trying to **** with me or what?

Quote:

As far as the propagation of the electromagnetic field, I was referring to the amount of energy require to propagate through air, I'm quite certain there are very big differences between the emf released by a radio station and an mp3 player through its hp out.


The permittivity of air is such that it has virtually no effect on an electric field. For all intents and purposes you may as well be talking about a vacuum.

k
 
Sep 6, 2009 at 4:17 PM Post #47 of 53

pdupiano

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Posts
1,480
Likes
22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Who said anything about left and right signals?

Why do you keep doing this? You did it first when you went on about "one wire" when no one was talking about one wire. Now you're talking about left and right channels when no one was talking about left and right channels.

Are you just trying to **** with me or what?



The permittivity of air is such that it has virtually no effect on an electric field. For all intents and purposes you may as well be talking about a vacuum.

k



Look at your previous post, the example is a mini without a ground wire, with only the left and right signals to the other mini connector right? So there are only 2 wires, I state they are independent from one another but you say they aren't.

well the amount of propagation for the emf through the air is dependent on the strength (increased voltage). At 3 volts, I doubt that the emf would we powerful enough to "come in contact" with the other wire. But still the issue is that the wires are independent from one another, and if they are independent, they can't have parasitic capacitance
 
Sep 6, 2009 at 4:38 PM Post #48 of 53

Steve Eddy

Member of the Trade: The Audio Guild
Aka: TempAccount555
Joined
Sep 28, 2003
Posts
6,609
Likes
548
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Look at your previous post, the example is a mini without a ground wire, with only the left and right signals to the other mini connector right? So there are only 2 wires, I state they are independent from one another but you say they aren't.


The example as I understood it involved two conductors comprising a single channel, not two channels comprising a single conductor per channel, which is just nonsense.

Quote:

well the amount of propagation for the emf through the air is dependent on the strength (increased voltage). At 3 volts, I doubt that the emf would we powerful enough to "come in contact" with the other wire.


An electric field will radiate out to infinity unless something else impinges on it.

Quote:

But still the issue is that the wires are independent from one another, and if they are independent, they can't have parasitic capacitance


You need to better define what you mean by "wires."

k
 
Sep 6, 2009 at 5:53 PM Post #49 of 53

pdupiano

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Posts
1,480
Likes
22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The example as I understood it involved two conductors comprising a single channel, not two channels comprising a single conductor per channel, which is just nonsense.



An electric field will radiate out to infinity unless something else impinges on it.



You need to better define what you mean by "wires."

k



Ok yeah I misunderstood the example then, I thought it was 2 conductors one signal each, which was why I asked about the sound that you get if you don't have a ground wire for a mini to mini (2 channel).

When wrote down wires, I meant wires as in a conductor covered with a dielectric. But that doesn't matter since I misunderstood the example to begin with nullifying the points I made.
 
Apr 2, 2014 at 11:11 PM Post #50 of 53

Seidhepriest

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Posts
655
Likes
21
Short answer: yes.
Explanation: the ground channel carries the return signal. So the sooner electricity gets flushed from the drivers, the sooner it arrives there. Ground wires have to be at least the same quality as signal wires, if not better. This also applies to studio wiring by the way: as a seasoned electronic engineer had once explained, you can't just lump all the ground wires to a single line that is connected to the actual ground pole. You have to make separate exit wires that are connected to the ground pole. This reduces ground hum considerably, and, in my personal experience, improves dynamics.
 
As a little experiment on headphones wired with twisted-pair silver-plated copper cable, a single exit wire (of the same wire type, only single, not TP) does make them slightly stuck-up/slow compared to a twisted pair.
 
The basic notion here is, if you want to slow down the dynamics and build up resistance, then yes you don't have to care at all for ground wire/exit quality. It's a matter of bandwidth, the stream of electrons simply has to have the same exit channel bandwidth. It may not be such a big difference with headphones, but nevertheless it is there.
 
As a piece of advice though, using a copper braid for shielding a cable makes an instant change in imaging that's very noticeable. That's what most nobody does, unfortunately. Shielding is crucial for preserving high frequencies and overall consistency.
 
Apr 7, 2014 at 11:35 AM Post #51 of 53

wakibaki

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
May 26, 2011
Posts
1,088
Likes
68
Short answer: yes.
Explanation: the ground channel carries the return signal. So the sooner electricity gets flushed from the drivers, the sooner it arrives there. Ground wires have to be at least the same quality as signal wires, if not better. This also applies to studio wiring by the way: as a seasoned electronic engineer had once explained, you can't just lump all the ground wires to a single line that is connected to the actual ground pole. You have to make separate exit wires that are connected to the ground pole. This reduces ground hum considerably, and, in my personal experience, improves dynamics.

As a little experiment on headphones wired with twisted-pair silver-plated copper cable, a single exit wire (of the same wire type, only single, not TP) does make them slightly stuck-up/slow compared to a twisted pair.

The basic notion here is, if you want to slow down the dynamics and build up resistance, then yes you don't have to care at all for ground wire/exit quality. It's a matter of bandwidth, the stream of electrons simply has to have the same exit channel bandwidth. It may not be such a big difference with headphones, but nevertheless it is there.

As a piece of advice though, using a copper braid for shielding a cable makes an instant change in imaging that's very noticeable. That's what most nobody does, unfortunately. Shielding is crucial for preserving high frequencies and overall consistency.


This is mostly drivel, and what isn't is only right by accident.

w
 
Apr 7, 2014 at 11:37 AM Post #52 of 53

wakibaki

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
May 26, 2011
Posts
1,088
Likes
68
If there's one word that should be permanently removed from the lexicon of electrical terms it's the word "ground."


A signal propagates down a cable as a transverse electromagnetic wave between two conductors, neither of which is more important or less important than the other. As far as the cable is concerned, there is no "ground," or "send," or "return."


I understand where you're coming from se, but 'ground' is there for a reason. It's not possible to adequately discuss propagation from vertical monopoles without reference to the huge conductor and image 'plane' that is the 'ground'.

The full ramifications of balanced and unbalanced are only discovered when considering radio.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopole_antenna

w
 
Apr 8, 2014 at 4:52 AM Post #53 of 53

murrays

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Posts
302
Likes
42
Quite simply, it's a circuit.  What flows out must be returned in the same manner. It is a continuous current loop.
Some people seem to have the misunderstanding that there is a major difference or separation between delivery of sound TO the headphone and the return via ground FROM the headphone. The same applies further back through the power supply.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top