Is it time for a new Harmon Curve survey?

Dec 7, 2024 at 9:25 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 148

sendler2112

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Is it time for a broader survey of a new Harmon Curve from 1,000s of serious listeners at the CanJams next year? It would be so simple to set up several stations in a quiet room upstairs and give people a 1/2 hour appointment time to adjust a graphic EQ to their preference on the calibrated test rigs.

Members of the press and pros could take their turn on Thursday and hundreds of Patrons could get a chance throughout the remainder of the show at each venue.
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 10:45 AM Post #2 of 148
Is it time for a broader survey of a new Harmon Curve from 1,000s of serious listeners at the CanJams next year?
I don’t recall the protocol/methodology of the Harmon tests but weren’t they more controlled, already had a quite broad spectrum of subjects and revised more than once over the course of a few years? Also, hasn’t it caught on and become widely used because it is already a quite accurate average?

G
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 11:42 AM Post #4 of 148
I think of it as a starting point. For gaming I just cut the bass shelf filter in half to flatten the bass so explosions don't drown everything out. It also depends on the music genre, and the headphones capability for distortion. Some can't take a Harman curve without distortion happening at good volumes. It's like a recipe for food, a starting point then make it your own. It's nice for improving spatial effects on most models.
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 12:01 PM Post #5 of 148
I always tend to find a Harmon curve as too bass heavy, slightly dim on top above 7 kHz, and muddy/ too high in the 1-2 kHz region.
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 12:05 PM Post #6 of 148
Is it time for a broader survey of a new Harmon Curve from 1,000s of serious listeners at the CanJams next year? It would be so simple to set up several stations in a quiet room upstairs and give people a 1/2 hour appointment time to adjust a graphic EQ to their preference on the calibrated test rigs.

Members of the press and pros could take their turn on Thursday and hundreds of Patrons could get a chance throughout the remainder of the show at each venue.
Always yes to more data if some people are brave enough to get everything prepared for no reward except people saying it's crap because they don't prefer the result.
But the ugly head of coupler choices and calibration will inevitably show up. The options for something relevant are either to rely on the measurement rig Harman used, giving some info about possible deviation from their curve, or confirmation that they got it right.
The other choice is to go with a more popular/modern coupler and mic setup like what HeadFi has, to help translate(kind of) the result into a large range of already measured headphones on the same rig. But that comes at the cost of probably not having a sure way to know if the results align with Harman's original work.


The problem with the Harman target is that it's just a survey of tastes. It's basically the equivalent of asking people what flavour softdrink they like and getting an average out of that.
What else could it be? The is no objective best or neutral frequency response for headphones because part of the tuning(and expectation) is done by the head wearing it. And we tend to have different heads and ears. A percentage of how many people prefer or dislike a given FR, is all we can ever hope to get when it concerns more than 1 person.

If one day we get some very precise, reliable, cheap and fast mean to measure everybody's HRTF, then it would become interesting to find out what I expect to finally be a universal curve like we have for speakers(with some leeway for low frequency as headphone's seal quality influences bass a lot). Then we'd take that curve, compensate it with our HRTF for 2 basic directions if we stick to crappy headphone stereo, or ideally, for many directions with audio panning getting identified somehow(maybe Atmos, maybe just some DSP for that with stereo albums) so we could also get very improved spatial cues on top of a finally neutral sounding FR.
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 12:46 PM Post #7 of 148
I believe such a test would be simple to set up now that we have computer audio. A range of different headphones and systems could be measured by Head-Fi on whatever test rig as a starting point. It doesn't have to match anything that was done in the past actually. As long as it is a measurement rig that is now commonly available. EQ the rig to whatever starting curve they wanted to test. 1000's of different listeners would then spend 1/2 hour adjusting a simple 10 band graphic equalizer while listening to a few various tracks.

I'm sure some notable statistical modes would appear with a number of samples in the 1000's. Head-fi already has expert opinions on a starting point for a modified curve which we could start with which would streamline the process with the listeners. Maybe a new Head-Fi curve would find people adjusting almost nothing.

Who would want to do it? Head-Fi has staff that are already spending time doing individual measurement and extensive reviews and are already traveling to all of the shows with Headphones.com already dragging a truck load of gear. Audeze is dragging a truck load of gear. Sennheiser, Burson, etc. Manufacturers would bid to buy in with support to have their equipment featured. It would be a draw for the event for the patrons who would look forward to participate.
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 2:41 PM Post #8 of 148
I believe such a test would be simple to set up now that we have computer audio. A range of different headphones and systems could be measured by Head-Fi on whatever test rig as a starting point. It doesn't have to match anything that was done in the past actually. As long as it is a measurement rig that is now commonly available. EQ the rig to whatever starting curve they wanted to test. 1000's of different listeners would then spend 1/2 hour adjusting a simple 10 band graphic equalizer while listening to a few various tracks.

I'm sure some notable statistical modes would appear with a number of samples in the 1000's. Head-fi already has expert opinions on a starting point for a modified curve which we could start with which would streamline the process with the listeners. Maybe a new Head-Fi curve would find people adjusting almost nothing.

Who would want to do it? Head-Fi has staff that are already spending time doing individual measurement and extensive reviews and are already traveling to all of the shows with Headphones.com already dragging a truck load of gear. Audeze is dragging a truck load of gear. Sennheiser, Burson, etc. Manufacturers would bid to buy in with support to have their equipment featured. It would be a draw for the event for the patrons who would look forward to participate.
I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. On the bright side, I'm nobody, not an admin and not an organizer, so my opinion has no impact whatsoever. On the other hand, I can do nothing for you.
It's just that projects in general have more issues than we think, and take more time than planned. It's the one reliable rule of project management.

Anyway, here is my very personal opinion:
-Good luck organizing something for even 200 people to spend half an hour on anything other than what they came to do.
-Hope for a miracle when asking all those people to meaningfully handle an EQ. I would expect your plan to get us the noisiest and least exploitable data. Sorry, but that's likely what would happen.
For reference, Harman decided to have listeners chose between a handful of curves/headphones. In another trial, they offered a basic bass and treble sliders with predefined curves and frequency. And it went on like this in very incremental steps instead of leaving full EQ control to the listeners. I'm guessing that's because they shared my views on what the average untrained guy will do of an EQ and "set what you prefer" as a guideline. :scream::scream::scream::scream:

And just as a basis, I don't see evidence that there is a much better curve waiting for us when using good old stereo albums + headphones. Sure, I see various reviewers and websites implementing their own variations over Harman, based on how they and, like 3 of their friends, agreed with the idea. I mean no disrespect, they have their reasons and some(minority) are grounded in logic. It's just that statistical significance is a powerful thing to have for this topic. They usually don't have that, so all in all, I have a hard time seeing how any of that can stand up to a dozen of pretty rigorous experiments over a decade, leading to the Harman curve for headphones.
And if not that, what would be the incentive to look for a new curve?
For the IEMs curve, I couldn't say if Harman had enough transferable data from previous headphone and speaker studies, to allow such a fast result(comparatively!).

And yes, with all that, I'm still in favor of just about any extra testing, to serve as replication study if it's good, and for participant to hopefully learn about testing or/and themselves.
 
Dec 7, 2024 at 7:28 PM Post #9 of 148
What else could it be? The is no objective best or neutral frequency response for headphones because part of the tuning(and expectation) is done by the head wearing it. And we tend to have different heads and ears. A percentage of how many people prefer or dislike a given FR, is all we can ever hope to get when it concerns more than 1 person.

If one day we get some very precise, reliable, cheap and fast mean to measure everybody's HRTF, then it would become interesting to find out what I expect to finally be a universal curve like we have for speakers(with some leeway for low frequency as headphone's seal quality influences bass a lot). Then we'd take that curve, compensate it with our HRTF for 2 basic directions if we stick to crappy headphone stereo, or ideally, for many directions with audio panning getting identified somehow(maybe Atmos, maybe just some DSP for that with stereo albums) so we could also get very improved spatial cues on top of a finally neutral sounding FR.
Yup, and the issue is, what country is the survey conducted in and how big is the sample size?
Do my Australian ears want the same sound as Americans?
And if you increase the sample size to include multiple countries, with millions of people, will the average be even relevant to anyone then?

Other than measuring our individual HRTF, like you said, I don't see how a true neutral meassuring curve could ever be worked out.

I simply see Harman as an average of people on the other side of the planet which may not be completely relevant to me.
 
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Dec 7, 2024 at 9:34 PM Post #10 of 148
I don’t know if it makes a difference or not but, strictly speaking, the Harman target is not an “average”, but what maximized the preference score from the Harman research listeners sample. So, it is more a representation of the largest group (cluster) rather than an “average”.

Sean Olive at Harman Labs never denied that other targets may work (very) well for smaller groups of listeners.

And I believe recent studies show that the preference in the bass area is not very strong—for example, the SoundGuys target has, statistically, the same preference score, yet it is different…
 
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Dec 7, 2024 at 10:46 PM Post #11 of 148
Yup, and the issue is, what country is the survey conducted in and how big is the sample size?
Do my Australian ears want the same sound as Americans?
And if you increase the sample size to include multiple countries, with millions of people, will the average be even relevant to anyone then?

Other than measuring our individual HRTF, like you said, I don't see how a true neutral meassuring curve could ever be worked out.

I simply see Harman as an average of people on the other side of the planet which may not be completely relevant to me.
Sure. It's also not my preferred curve and the purpose is ultimately to know more and have some target for R&D that isn't betting on some random response liked by that one guy usually doing the tuning.
As said above, the curve is an attempt to please the most possible people with one curve. TBH I expected the most people to be like 20% of the population at best, so to me the Harman papers were a surprise when they talked about 6 out of 10 listeners preferring their curve to some other stuff. Of course, no curve would please all people. It expected for objective reasons alone. Another curve is likely to please some other people more, but it's also likely to please fewer than Harman's target curve(at least based on what the publicly available data is suggesting so far, IDK what IDK).
And then, no matter how small the group concerned by one curve, they'll have to adjust at least the bass on their own anyway(except for random luck), because of seal quality on their own head with that one headphone they're using. So, yeah, if you don't care much about that FR curve, it's very fine and normal.


Nothing ever pleases everybody. Maybe all preference discussions should start with that.:smile_cat:
 
Dec 8, 2024 at 3:36 AM Post #12 of 148
The problem with the Harman target is that it's just a survey of tastes.
That’s not the problem with the Harman Target, that’s the whole point! That’s like saying the problem with a voting exit poll is that it’s just a survey of which candidate the voters preferred.
And if you increase the sample size to include multiple countries, with millions of people, will the average be even relevant to anyone then?
Not necessarily, you don’t seem to understand what an average is. For example, the average number of children per family in the USA was 2.4 but of course not a single family actually had 2.4 children.
Other than measuring our individual HRTF, like you said, I don't see how a true neutral meassuring curve could ever be worked out.
It is not supposed to be a “true neutral measuring curve” it is supposed to be a preference curve!
I simply see Harman as an average of people on the other side of the planet which may not be completely relevant to me.
There’s no evidence of which I’m aware that suggests people on the other side of the planet average a significantly different preference curve. The reason it may not be completely relevant to you is because you might be part of the 50% or so of people who have a somewhat different preference.

You don’t seem to know what the Harman Target is, what it’s for or how to use it and then you’re complaining that it doesn’t do something different that it’s not designed or claimed to do!

G
 
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Dec 8, 2024 at 5:11 AM Post #13 of 148
There’s no evidence of which I’m aware that suggests people on the other side of the planet average a significantly different preference curve.
Harman concludes there are good similarities on average between US, Germany, Canada of course, and China(mostly Harman people).
While "Preference ratings and 32 magnitude frequency response curves" https://zenodo.org/records/8388242 concludes there is a significant difference between Danish and Japanese listeners. It's also specific to headphones, which is good, but the total number of listeners is only 56 split in 2 for each country.

I have nothing else.
 
Dec 8, 2024 at 5:40 AM Post #14 of 148
Everyone seems to want someone else to dictate their target response curve. They don’t want to invest time into determining their own personal curve for themselves.
 
Dec 8, 2024 at 5:56 AM Post #15 of 148
While "Preference ratings and 32 magnitude frequency response curves" https://zenodo.org/records/8388242 concludes there is a significant difference between Danish and Japanese listeners.
Mmmm, interesting. While purely anecdotal; I’ve worked with a number of Danish and Japanese sound/music engineers, plus from the USA, various other oriental countries and many European countries and never noticed a significant difference in balance/colouration preferences (beyond what you’d randomly expect between individuals from the same country). That was with speakers though, rather than headphones.

This suggests (to me) that either the results were somewhat anomalous or there maybe a difference specifically with headphones due to physiological differences between the two nationalities. The latter is not necessarily as far fetched as it sounds, as the Danish are amongst the tallest people in the world (on average), while the Japanese are (or were historically) amongst the shortest.

G
 

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