Is Critical Listening a Skill ?
Jun 25, 2017 at 7:09 AM Post #46 of 91
To get a better understanding of this topic. What exactly is critical listening? Is there something else other than the music that I should be listening for?

I've heard this phrase over the years , and never really understood the purpose. Is it for a particular thing in a song? Is it to evaluate how your gear preforms?
I just don't understand the difference between listening to music, and "critically listening to music".
 
Jun 25, 2017 at 9:57 AM Post #47 of 91
I'm not claiming anything, just saying how I read the sentence.
I made a mistake by writing "experience" as everything is somehow experience for us. for that I failed hard^_^. in my mind I meant things we discover on our own vs things we are told about, and methods to discover them. so I get the confusion, I have confused myself.

This is pure non-sense.
 
Jun 26, 2017 at 2:19 AM Post #48 of 91
To get a better understanding of this topic. What exactly is critical listening? Is there something else other than the music that I should be listening for?

I've heard this phrase over the years , and never really understood the purpose. Is it for a particular thing in a song? Is it to evaluate how your gear preforms?
I just don't understand the difference between listening to music, and "critically listening to music".

I have always interpreted "critical listening" to mean that you're looking at the underpinnings of the experience rather than just letting it wash over you as a whole. For instance, you might listen to a piece of music and enjoy the overall performance, but if you're listening critically, you'll be noting how the selection and balance of instruments (and, if present, vocals) contributes to the effect, as well as the technique used in the playing, the stylistic choices made by the performers and/or conductor, etc. If you're restricting yourself to the recording itself, just listening you might perceive that everything sounds "right" and enjoy the experience, but if you're listening critically, you'll pick up on how the recording is mixed, how the vocal track has just the right amount of presence and top end to sound clear but not harsh, etc. If you consider the composition, just listening you might let yourself get immersed in your own thoughts and emotions while, say, a Bach organ fugue is playing, but if you're listening critically, you'll be paying attention to how many polyphonic voices there are, how many themes Bach has chosen to weave together, how they're altered to make them fit together, etc.

Personally, I don't set out to do just one or the other when I start listening, because part of my enjoyment of music relies on appreciating how it's put together and performed, how it's recorded, and how it's composed. It's impossible for me to just turn all that off, so I always end up somewhere between the two. It's a bit like reading a book and appreciating the story a lot more when you get all the references the author threw in, any possible allegory involved, as well as knowing what the author was trying to accomplish and what their life was/is like. It's of course not necessary to enjoy the book, but it all adds to the experience. And, just like with music, when I'm reading I can't entirely switch off analysis mode, so even if I'm just reading for pleasure, I'm still going to pick up on an obvious reference to Greek mythology or a deliberate retelling of a well known sequence of historical or literary events.

And as far as gear goes? For me, the point of having nice equipment is so I don't have to listen to it. It's not hard to hear biting, fatiguing treble or wonky midrange. In fact, it intrudes on the experience and detracts from it. Sometimes I take a step back and admire how even handed my HD 600's response is and how it lacks any sort of fatigue or pervasive coloration, but it's hard to get too drawn into that since the very quality I value about it is the fact that it doesn't call any attention to itself. I did most of my critical listening to the HD 600 in the first day I had it. It passed every test I threw at it and evaded any attempt I made to trip it up (the first and thus far only headphone to do so), and I pretty much left it at that. I guess I could dwell on this, or, when I'm listening to other headphones in my collection, I could dwell on their flaws. Maybe this is what audiophiles do when they use music to listen to gear. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm willing to accept a void, a blank stare from my equipment--in fact, that's the end goal. But for the typical audiophile, they're looking for the equipment to speak, to call attention to itself, to delight them. So they're always listening critically to it, looking for (or willing) it to do something, comparing it to what they think the other equipment they have is doing.
 
Jun 26, 2017 at 2:40 AM Post #49 of 91
I think it's a lot easier to listen to sound quality than it is to understand music. that's why audiophile recordings are usually abismal and dated musically, but people still buy it. The music Steven Wilson puts out is pretty awful prog rock, and musically Pink Floyd is down there with Boston and Bananarama. But that's what middle aged audiophiles buy.

Gear becomes the justification for being lame. No girlfriend? Buy some $1000 headphones! Live with your parents at 30? Get a fancy DAC.
 
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Jun 26, 2017 at 2:45 AM Post #50 of 91
I have always interpreted "critical listening" to mean that you're looking at the underpinnings of the experience rather than just letting it wash over you as a whole. For instance, you might listen to a piece of music and enjoy the overall performance, but if you're listening critically, you'll be noting how the selection and balance of instruments (and, if present, vocals) contributes to the effect, as well as the technique used in the playing, the stylistic choices made by the performers and/or conductor, etc. If you're restricting yourself to the recording itself, just listening you might perceive that everything sounds "right" and enjoy the experience, but if you're listening critically, you'll pick up on how the recording is mixed, how the vocal track has just the right amount of presence and top end to sound clear but not harsh, etc. If you consider the composition, just listening you might let yourself get immersed in your own thoughts and emotions while, say, a Bach organ fugue is playing, but if you're listening critically, you'll be paying attention to how many polyphonic voices there are, how many themes Bach has chosen to weave together, how they're altered to make them fit together, etc.

Personally, I don't set out to do just one or the other when I start listening, because part of my enjoyment of music relies on appreciating how it's put together and performed, how it's recorded, and how it's composed. It's impossible for me to just turn all that off, so I always end up somewhere between the two. It's a bit like reading a book and appreciating the story a lot more when you get all the references the author threw in, any possible allegory involved, as well as knowing what the author was trying to accomplish and what their life was/is like. It's of course not necessary to enjoy the book, but it all adds to the experience. And, just like with music, when I'm reading I can't entirely switch off analysis mode, so even if I'm just reading for pleasure, I'm still going to pick up on an obvious reference to Greek mythology or a deliberate retelling of a well known sequence of historical or literary events.

And as far as gear goes? For me, the point of having nice equipment is so I don't have to listen to it. It's not hard to hear biting, fatiguing treble or wonky midrange. In fact, it intrudes on the experience and detracts from it. Sometimes I take a step back and admire how even handed my HD 600's response is and how it lacks any sort of fatigue or pervasive coloration, but it's hard to get too drawn into that since the very quality I value about it is the fact that it doesn't call any attention to itself. I did most of my critical listening to the HD 600 in the first day I had it. It passed every test I threw at it and evaded any attempt I made to trip it up (the first and thus far only headphone to do so), and I pretty much left it at that. I guess I could dwell on this, or, when I'm listening to other headphones in my collection, I could dwell on their flaws. Maybe this is what audiophiles do when they use music to listen to gear. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm willing to accept a void, a blank stare from my equipment--in fact, that's the end goal. But for the typical audiophile, they're looking for the equipment to speak, to call attention to itself, to delight them. So they're always listening critically to it, looking for (or willing) it to do something, comparing it to what they think the other equipment they have is doing.
This is what it is like for me too, although I have the added dimension of using music as therapy to help manage a neurological condition (ADHD). I love classical music and for me it has become much more than passively listening to a piece. After learning a little bit about the background of Beethoven's Third 'Eroica' I listen to it differently and I recently even bought a Beethoven biography to learn more about it. Similar for Mendelssohn's 'Scottish' where I can see the Scottish landscape in the music. I also love hearing the different interpretations of the same piece. Simon Rattle's more modern, fast paced interpretation of 'Eroica' compared to a much slower version performed by the Czech National Symphony Orchestra (the Musopen project). It has now come to a point where I intend to study the history of classical music more seriously, as I can use the insights gained from that for my regular research as well.

As for my gear, I select it carefully in an attempt to gain the most benefit from it for my ADHD. That has led me to study signatures a little and how those effect my level of engagement with the music as well as how quickly I tire from listening. The smooth signature of my Ei.3 is a delight all day long and it helps me concentrate on my work. I intentionally sacrificed a bit of detail retrieval for that smooth and more organic sound. The whole process of getting to that point has already taught me a lot about signatures and gear.
 
Jun 26, 2017 at 2:52 AM Post #51 of 91
i think conditions have more to do with why people are in internet forums rather than anything to do with the subject of the forums, but I might be wrong in that.
 
Jun 26, 2017 at 2:54 AM Post #52 of 91
Blah blah blah, yap yap yap. The best skill is being able to forget time and you moving, rocking and flowing to the music. If you able to smile and absorb your music you won.
 
Jun 26, 2017 at 6:05 AM Post #54 of 91
If you listen to what everyone plays, and how the tune is pieced together, then gear quickly becomes an irritating factor.

First of all, using speakers and the standard bases for stereo, there is only a one dimensional reproduction, by definition. It is a straight line. running left to right. I know how the sensation is, when apparently the speakers disappear, and all that, still, this is the physics of it.

Listening for soundstage is thus a strange thing to do. Soundstage is supposed to be this great thing about the HD800, which I happen to use for hours every day. There is only left to right, for classic stereo recordings. That left to right is not really that much wider than other cans I own. At best, it is academic in nature.

Then there is imaging. That is how precicely the sounds are placed on the soundstage. If used correctly, the HD800 is a pure joy for that. It makes everything so much more fun.

As separation is insane with HD800, and the imaging is really great, listening for what the different voices sing, is so easy. There is the usual dubbing, in which the main singer, does his own backing vocals. Trying to separate them, and the rest of the instruments, makes me appreciate what I am actually listening to, and how it is actually played.

The there is articulation. The more details reproduced, in the right way, the more natural sounding a voice or instrument becomes. A great reproduction, as in great articulation, of voices, particularly female, make music a pure escape for me. Writing this, I am listening to Sia, and my HD800 make me drift like nothing else I have ever tried listening to.

Precision, well to me, that is how tight and accurate the sound is reproduced. Particularly perk, as in drums, sound like a rumble, when lacking precision. It differ from articulation, as this is about how precise the reproduction is of what is being reproduced. The base might not extend that deep, but what is reproduced might be precise.

There is something called transparent, but to me, that is not a core sonic trait. It it is tight in imaging, has great separation, great articulation, and tight precision, it will be transparent to me.

I actually really dig attack. To me, that is about how hard hitting a drum might be reproduced, particularly perk, like cymbals. Hitting metal, well, it is a hard hitting sound. To me, that is just a part of precision. Something I listen for, to quickly get an idea what listening experience to expect from the gear at hand.

To me, gear always is limiting the music enjoyment. In some way. When a tune is supposed to rock, but all the pieces that builds that expression is lost on the gear reproduction, sorry, a greater part is lost. It is not possible to enjoy what is not there.

Also, a classic test is to relax, and see what happens to your listening. The HD800 has a tendency to make me focus on the details, on the parts, the parts that make the whole. This is typically described as analytical cans, because of that. (It used to by the way, people evolve with their gear.)

My MM500 Denons, make me drift more into the harmonies, the forest, not the trees. That sort of rendering is typically called warm, some even call it natural. I use them Denons less and less, as there is simply so much missing, while using them. This is a typical trait of warm rendering in general. As opposed the HD800, there is simply so much missing, that most tunes is rendered as something completely different, as a piece of music. It is OK for what it is, and would have been just fine if this was what ever had known. I would still enjoy the music.

Would a musician typical be able to describe sound rendering like this: NO. He would not even be close. He would pick up a HD800, and will be able to listen to each instrument with ease. He would thus turn to the HD800 for that, and that is in fact what happens a lot, in the real world. That does not mean that he can quantify and articulate why that is. This is more organic for most musicians, and their attempts to describe sound reproduction is typically not analytical at all. They speak of warm rendering of a mic, but what constitutes a warm rendering? Picking apart "warm", leaves out the warmth. As analyzing any emotion would, and as is the very aim in much of psychological treatment. Analyzing an emotion kills it. If warmth cannot be felt, it cannot be conveyed.

Listening, is to me a mental and soul searching exercise. There are a bunch of different ways to listen to music. jmills8 seem to go for absorbing the music. The typical organic view. Feel the music. It is amazing how much of that feel that even a kitchen radio may render. This might even be done introvert or extrovert. Some drift into a dream like state, not moving at all. I for one, might stamp the beat, snapping fingers, shaking my head, even on the subway. If you ever ride a Norwegian subway, you would instantly realize how socially insane my behavior is. To me, dancing is an extreme form of listening. You do not feel the music, until you move to it. At least for some tunes. Sure, all of this can be improved upon. I definitely should snap my fingers more on the subway, probably should move a lot more to the music, which would cement me as a loony for every other traveler, but who cares? It is just "critical listening" right?

As to listen to gear, to describe its ability, there are distinct traits of sound reproduction, that emphasizes the different form of listening. As any musician would tell you: There is no one correct sound, not for music. But if you know how to analyze the pieces, know a bit about harmonies, then analyzing a can is not that hard. Some dig deep, like me, and pick apart the sound into very small pieces. But you can see the trees in a forest, the internal of every freaking tree is not that important, at least most of the time.

Some feel that a particular set of cans renders a rough expression, that actually, in their experience, enhances the expression of for instance rock. The render is raw, but not precise. If all you need is a can to enjoy rock, it is not needed to be able to analyze the sound any further. You got what you need.

So, would it be smart for everyone to dig any deeper than that? No. Critical depends on both what is sought, and your positional.

I once talked with someone owning a three way speaker setup. Expensive as $h!..., well you got the picture. I told him about the physics of speaker reproduction, and the main flaws of his speakers. A sound is reproduced basically by the plane drawn between the listeners ears, and the speakers. It is dead flat, there is no height. That result in the highs being rendered physically higher than the mids, while base is typically not well space positioned by humans, but the part that is, would be even lower. The result? Well, while playing metal strings, on the guitar, sound that is really a single point in the soundstage, is rendered as climbing in height through its range. The sound of the hand work is usually clearly above the base strings of the guitar. Or the sounds like hitting the guitar, to add a beat. This guy that I talked to got upset, that once he knew this, he could not unhear it anymore. His experience was ruined.

Sure, if you want to evolve as a listener, and need to really understand this in dept and with high skill, you are in for a rough ride. There are so many flat out dumb conceptions as to what sound reproduction is, like 3D rendering by stereo speakers, that real critical listening ends up being a really socially challenging task. People have their opinions, and simply gets angry, if you challenge them. Like this "objectivists boardroom". It you share critical listening experiences with them, they will tell you that you are wrong, even before you finish your sentence. They will tell you that you are fooled by your senses, even without knowing anything about the nature of your listening, nor your core argument. That might come off as rude or strange, but that is actually how most people react to really critical listening, as such listening result in conflict with a lot of pre-conceptions.

To me, the sound quality of Spotify is poor, but good enough for most people to love the music that is on there. That is why I typically points people there, rather than Tidal HiFi. If they do not hear all the compression imperfections, and still loves the music, what is really the harm? Good enough, is good enough. There are more important things in this world to worry about.

I end this long piece actually snapping fingers to "The Look (Original Mix)" by Cedric Gevais. Using my HD800. Simply put, I have never heard a more tight and thus funky reproduction of that tune, than by my own gear. I know every little instrument by heart, every sound by heart. Nothing beats a hard hitting super tight beat (pun intended). Yep, I am really digging house techno on my HD800. It is so bloody insane, I have to stop writing, as I find myself snapping fingers to that insane tune. Oh, and I only know of one cable for my cans, that makes that a joy, and that is the Heimdal 2. Completely immeasurable by any machine, but certainly by the level of my excitement and by a heap of distinct sonic traits. For us who knows how to critically listen for them. Knowing the trees in details, is not in conflict with enjoying the forests. At least to me. It is like loving a family, yet know every member intimately. Actually knowing my loved ones really well, makes me cherish my family so much more.

Peace, out.
 
Jun 27, 2017 at 10:28 AM Post #55 of 91
Musicians usually have a better ear for mixing balances than engineers though.
It is not about being a musician as such, but about the fact that musicians usually have a better ear. Why? Because they surround themselves with music all the time and that trains the brain.

I see a lot of confusion on head-fi about these matters. A musician has a better idea of what they personally want to achieve sound wise than an engineer, that much should be obvious. No matter how brilliant of an engineer I might be, I'm not telepathic, I don't and can never know an individual musician's musicality choices/preferences as well as they themselves do. However, while they are more of an expert on their personal musicality preferences than anyone else can ever be, that doesn't mean they know how to listen better than an engineer! Experienced pro musician's are highly trained listeners but only for a relatively narrow set of parameters. Namely; music construction, instrument tonal qualities and the limited capability they have to change them (in order to elicit emotional responses). When it comes to the much wider area of sound/audio, classical musicians are typically no more capable than the average consumer, although in my experience, having already experienced conscious/formal listening training, they are often quicker to pick up other audio properties/subtleties (which they were not previously aware existed), than someone who has never had listening training. For example, an average consumer wouldn't know what "reverb" is. A pro classical musician would know about "reverb" although they might not know that term and would instead use "acoustic properties", which they would identify as "wet", "dry" or somewhere in between, they might even distinguish a darker or brighter acoustic but that's about as far as it would go. As an engineer though, that's way too simplistic for my purposes, I have to be able to hear not just that reverb exists and how much there is of it but the individual properties of reverb; Pre-delay, Early Reflections, the level, spread and timing of those ERs, the balance and timing of them relative to the reverb tail, the colouration of both the ERs and reverb, the diffusion and decay characteristics of both, etc. Musician's are just as ignorant of all this as the average consumer and just as oblivious to hearing it, until it's demonstrated to them. And, this is just reverb, there's countless other areas in audio which musicians are blissfully unaware even exist, let alone have trained to aurally recognise.

In short, musicians know about music and musicality but little more about sound than an enthusiastic consumer. Although there is some overlap, the listening skills of musicians and engineers are largely completely different and we have largely different terminology to reflect this fact. I often see confusion here on head-fi, stating/assuming that musicians are experts on sound and not understanding or misrepresenting what an engineer is/does?

I find the thread title rather baffling. If critical listening wasn't a learned skill, then centuries of music conservertoires have wasted countless months of their and their students time and the training of audio engineers would also be vastly different!

G
 
Jun 27, 2017 at 10:53 AM Post #56 of 91
In short, musicians know about music and musicality but little more about sound than an enthusiastic consumer. Although there is some overlap, the listening skills of musicians and engineers are largely completely different and we have largely different terminology to reflect this fact. I often see confusion here on head-fi, stating/assuming that musicians are experts on sound and not understanding or misrepresenting what an engineer is/does?
It is not so much confusion, as it is simply that this is an online forum and not anything formal. People will use terms rather loosely and so "music" and "sound" are terms used with a variety of meanings. The way I used it was only referring to music and how, say, a classical piece is being reproduced by a certain set of IEMs. Does is sound realistic, is the tonality correct, do the IEMs convey the right emotions? When it comes to engineering I happily acknowledge that it is a different thing altogether, although, and that is what I have been trying to point out, the underlying biology is the same (in terms of improving the skill).
I find the thread title rather baffling. If critical listening wasn't a learned skill, then centuries of music conservertoires have wasted countless months of their and their students time and the training of audio engineers would also be vastly different!
I think the question is more in line with this being an internet forum and not a technical discussion among professionals. To me it seems more like a question about whether or not critical listening requires certain talents before one can develop it as a skill and whether or not our ability to do so is limited by our hearing (some people hear better than others). It is nothing formal, just a question out of interest.
 
Jun 27, 2017 at 11:31 AM Post #57 of 91
I was supervising a sound mix once and the director told the engineer that there was a bump at a particular line of dialogue. The engineer ran back to it and looked at his board and the various channels that were activated. "Nope, no bump." "Listen again." The director said. The engineer stood up at the board to get a close look at his meters and ran it again. "Nope. no bump." The director said, "Sit down and close your eyes and just listen to it." The engineer did that and went, "OOHHHH! I see what you're talking about!" He located the channel and trimmed off a little but of dialogue that was hanging over at an edit point. Engineers are important, but they don't necessarily have a super ability to hear.
 
Jun 27, 2017 at 12:03 PM Post #58 of 91
what? so all sound engineers don't have exceptional hearing? I see right through your little plan. next you're going to tell me that some sound engineers are good, while other sound engineers suck, as if they were real people.
but I'm not falling for that.



^_^
 
Jun 27, 2017 at 1:02 PM Post #59 of 91
They don't have super ability to hear like superman, but they do know what they are aiming for and looking for, period. Just exactly as all other professions, they may not have talents in it or gifted even though some of them are, but they know what they are doing and why they are doing it, and so they became so proficient in it. That applies to everything, and that is why we call some people is being "gifted"

Same as Lebron, he is gifted, and one can train the same way Lebron does with everything else exactly the same, but can never perform the way Lebron does, and that is fact.
 
Jun 27, 2017 at 1:08 PM Post #60 of 91
Engineers organize sound. That isn't the same as being able to hear things other people can't. They're good at making sound orderly and tidy. When it comes to striking creative balances, artists are better. Sometimes I think that may be because they can look at the overall, while engineers have to focus on details. That's the point I was trying to make.
 
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