[dazzerfong]

Common dude. They are selling you are overpriced product, of course audiophile placebo is going to be presented in the package. So that your ears gets accustomed to the different sound. They all know, your brain will eventually become accustomed to the sound.

The reason why audiophiles gear-cycle is the due to boredom from being accustomed to the sound. New product, something different initially, and become accustomed, and keep repeating in a cycle, and it's just so obvious. I wonder why so many gullable-ness goes on with grown ass men.

Why another burn-in discussion? Always the same O crap around here. It's like an autistic person repeating same crap over again.

Nah there's an other explanation - 200 hours is roughly 30 days of listening. Conveniently, the period in which returns become impossible............

 

[Redcarmoose]

There is a thread here at Head-Fi with over 33,000 posts.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-wm1z-wm1a.815841/page-2198

Feel free to ask any person on the thread about burn-in.

It’s really no big deal. We simply understand it as a way to remember how to judge sound with the Walkmans.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Nah there's an other explanation - 200 hours is roughly 30 days of listening. Conveniently, the period in which returns become impossible............

?

200 hours =
8.333 days

 

[Redcarmoose]

Common dude. They are selling you are overpriced product, of course audiophile placebo is going to be presented in the package. So that your ears gets accustomed to the different sound. They all know, your brain will eventually become accustomed to the sound.

The reason why audiophiles gear-cycle is the due to boredom from being accustomed to the sound. New product, something different initially, and become accustomed, and keep repeating in a cycle, and it's just so obvious. I wonder why so many gullable-ness goes on with grown ass men.

Why another burn-in discussion? Always the same O crap around here. It's like an autistic person repeating same crap over again.

Edit:

 

[dazzerfong]

?

200 hours =
8.333 days

Yeah, but you're not using it continuously for 200 hours.

Not to mention, you're supposed to double it because it tells you to stress both SE and BAL for 200 hours.

There is a thread here at Head-Fi with over 33,000 posts.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-wm1z-wm1a.815841/page-2198

Feel free to ask any person on the thread about burn-in.

It’s really no big deal. We simply understand it as a way to remember how to judge sound with the Walkmans.

Annnnd? They're remembering something that happened many months ago - not exactly a remarkable witness.

That being said, for the Walkman, I swore that my ZX300 tempered in tone after a firmware upgrade @ 40 hours. Mind you, this is weird as I don't believe any firmware can change the sound.

So, I marched back to my store and AB'd their ZX300, which had many hours through it but still stock firmware.

Absolutely zero difference.

Even whipped out a DSO to test it - no difference until -90dB.

Thing about burn-in is that there's some plausibility behind some components, namely capacitors. MLCCs 'stabilise' within minutes,

The irony, however, is that Sony uses POSCAPs, which are actually famous for their aging:

http://club.szlcsc.com/article/downFile_4028AD37E881CA4B.html

 

[Outaphase]

I know my AKG K712 did burn in, but unlike Tyll's lab measurements a few years ago, I used another source and my ears:

For kicks, when I first got my 712's, I ran this Quality / "Bass Shaker" test to see if the drivers were ok or loose.

https://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php

Uh oh - as it ran up and down the bass freqs, I could hear a "pffft" instead of certain bass notes. I freaked.

BUT, when just listening to my normal stuff, I couldn't detect it, so I just listened for a week. In the back of my mind, I was waiting for the "pffft" of some bass notes to appear, since I actually heard it during test, but luckily it wasn't heard under normal conditions.

I ran the test a week later, and lo and behold, the "bass shaker" test passed just fine and each note was clear and distinct as it ran up and down.

All I can say is that for *MY* pair of 712's, a bit of listening - without any sort of defined routine or calculated hours - I was good to go.

I think the main point was that had I not performed this test immediately after getting my new cans, I'm not totally sure I'd ever have noticed a difference.

 

[dazzerfong]

I know my AKG K712 did burn in, but unlike Tyll's lab measurements a few years ago, I used another source and my ears:

For kicks, when I first got my 712's, I ran this Quality / "Bass Shaker" test to see if the drivers were ok or loose.

https://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests_headphones.php

Uh oh - as it ran up and down the bass freqs, I could hear a "pffft" instead of certain bass notes. I freaked.

BUT, when just listening to my normal stuff, I couldn't detect it, so I just listened for a week. In the back of my mind, I was waiting for the "pffft" of some bass notes to appear, since I actually heard it during test, but luckily it wasn't heard under normal conditions.

I ran the test a week later, and lo and behold, the "bass shaker" test passed just fine and each note was clear and distinct as it ran up and down.

All I can say is that for *MY* pair of 712's, a bit of listening - without any sort of defined routine or calculated hours - I was good to go.

I think the main point was that had I not performed this test immediately after getting my new cans, I'm not totally sure I'd ever have noticed a difference.

Did it sound like a tizzle on some certain bass notes?

If so, that was hair on the driver.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Yeah, but you're not using it continuously for 200 hours.

Not to mention, you're supposed to double it because it tells you to stress both SE and BAL for 200 hours.



Annnnd? They're remembering something that happened many months ago - not exactly a remarkable witness.

That being said, for the Walkman, I swore that my ZX300 tempered in tone after a firmware upgrade @ 40 hours. Mind you, this is weird as I don't believe any firmware can change the sound.

So, I marched back to my store and AB'd their ZX300, which had many hours through it but still stock firmware.

Absolutely zero difference.

Even whipped out a DSO to test it - no difference until -90dB.

Right. Well I’m not ever going to insult anyone for believing what they believe in. In the quest for better sound, or simply understanding the hobby......we simply grab onto beliefs. If those beliefs control the buying process or listening process ultimately it always is some style of use of time or money in one direction or another.

The other thing is people’s perception. All people listen and notice different things. Scientists involved with Psychology in some key areas believe we only truly obtain 50% of what we perceive. The brain fills in the other half. So if you choose to accept these ideas it explains how suggested ideas and placebo would go to make subjective tests not reliable. The ability to have your perception changed by what you expect is clearly at work.

Still take note of the hundreds of posts in the Walkman Thread this week due to the third party software firmware being introduced. Before there was a small group who felt firmware made no difference but it’s safe to say about 2/3rds believe there is a difference in firmware. Also most all the time there is a group consensus about what the changes are for each firmware. Most of the time it truly is a group idea about the qualities, even though many actually are using different IEMs.

 

[Outaphase]

Did it sound like a tizzle on some certain bass notes?

If so, that was hair on the driver.

Yeah, it was a breathy kind of pfffffftt. Burnt-hair? Maybe! I was really concerned because I really didn't want it to be a loose wire and have to go inside, or return it. So I chilled for a week just listening. Whew.

My earlier set of cans was the AKG K240, but I never ran any tests. I thought - but couldn't swear - that I heard any difference after some normal play. So I sided on the brain just getting used to a "voice" so to speak. That's probably still a part of it too.

So I knew about that site, and just wanted to casually test my new cans right out of the box. Glad I did - even though it isn't a lab measurement - at least I was comfortable with something a little bit more than just subjective listening to my stuff.

 

[castleofargh]

Right. Well I’m not ever going to insult anyone for believing what they believe in. In the quest for better sound, or simply understanding the hobby......we simply grab onto beliefs. If those beliefs control their buying process of listening process ultimately it always is some style of use of time or money in one direction or another.

The other thing is people’s perception. All people listen and notice different things. Scientists involved with Psychology in some key areas believe we only truly obtain 50% of what we perceive. The brain fills in the other half. So if you choose to accept these ideas it explains how suggested ideas and placebo would go to make subjective tests not reliable. The ability to have your perception changed by what you expect is clearly at work.

Still take note of the hundreds of posts in the Walkman Thread since the third party software firmware has been introduced. Before there was a small group who felt firmware made no difference but it’s safe to say about 2/3rds believe there is a difference in firmware. Also most all the time there is a group consensus about what the changes are for each firmware. Most of the time it truly is a group idea about the qualities, even though many actually are using different IEMs.

The firmware stuff is a different matter. It may also involve overconfidence and the triumph of laziness and gut feelings over objective evidence, but then that's what we see in most audiophile topics. So let's keep different stuff in their respective topics.

About burn in:
Long term auditory memory is not very reliable. That is a known fact from repeatable controlled experiments.
Sighted impressions are prone to biases and placebo. That too is a known facts easily and repeatably demonstrable.
The concept of burn-in is supposed to be objective, caused by mechanical or chemical change over time. It's a pretty obvious fact that such a change would be best observed and demonstrated objectively. Not with random guy number 87345324 saying "I know burn in is real because I'm sure of what I heard weeks ago in that sighted experience".

As long as the burn-in side of the argument will be pushed by that guy or one of his many alter egos, I agree with @SilverEars , we're all wasting our time.

 

[Redcarmoose]

The firmware stuff is a different matter. It may also involve overconfidence and the triumph of laziness and gut feelings over objective evidence, but then that's what we see in most audiophile topics. So let's keep different stuff in their respective topics.

About burn in:
Long term auditory memory is not very reliable. That is a known fact from repeatable controlled experiments.
Sighted impressions are prone to biases and placebo. That too is a known facts easily and repeatably demonstrable.
The concept of burn-in is supposed to be objective, caused by mechanical or chemical change over time. It's a pretty obvious fact that such a change would be best observed and demonstrated objectively. Not with random guy number 87345324 saying "I know burn in is real because I'm sure of what I heard weeks ago in that sighted experience".

As long as the burn-in side of the argument will be pushed by that guy or one of his many alter egos, I agree with @SilverEars , we're all wasting our time.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/do-sony-walkmans-change-with-burn-in.926800/#post-15492764

 

[dazzerfong]

No no I confirm no bias it was night and day difference!

Well I suppose that wraps it up! No bias, and it was night and day difference!

Let's pack it up......

EDIT: I see sarcasm isn't as universal as I thought.........Vitaly, it obviously doesn't wrap it up.

 

[bigshot]

There is a thread here at Head-Fi with over 33,000 posts.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-wm1z-wm1a.815841/page-2198
Feel free to ask any person on the thread about burn-in.

Oh I would be delighted to do that if I was allowed to ask for a DBT as proof! But unless I can do that, asking them for info is about as good as asking an alien abduction forum for proof that extraterrestrials exist. They're just going to point to unconfirmed, subjective, personal anecdotes that are probably not true, whether they believe what they're saying or not.

No there is actually directions in the firmware that read like an owners manual expressing the use of hours of burn-in (200 hours) until the capacitors become “stable”.

Expectation bias firmly planted!

It's really easy to prove this...

An independent person sets up and administers the test. Two DAPs of the same make and model, fresh out of the box. Level matched, direct A/B switched, blind comparison. If no difference can be perceived, put one in the box and burn the other one in until the cows come home. Then do the level matched, direct A/B switched, blind comparison again and see if the results are different.

That isn't terribly complicated. Surely someone can prove it conclusively.