Is a Sonic Impact T-amp a good match for Klipsch Cornwall speakers?

[mshan]

In terms of sonic character, would a Sonic Impact T-amp be a synergistic match for Klipsch Cornwall speakers.

I believe these are 8 Ohm
98 dB sensitive speakers.

Source would be an Audio Technica LP50 entry level turntable and lots of not very well cared for lps.

 

[fran]

Well it would certainly work, but won't be the great synergistic match that say a low power SET 2A3 amp would be though! You will get sound to a fair volume though, hell a t-amp will drive my quad 57s - a notoriously hard load to drive! Sonics, although punching well above its price, just don't cut it compared to a half-decent valve amp.

See post below - my comments are based on hearing the t-amp with a few sets of speakers (and preamps) but NOT with the klipsch speakers mentioned above.

Fran

 

[mshan]

Would you say the sound character of the T-amp is just clean, modern solid state?

 

[Chops]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fran /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well it would certainly work, but won't be the great synergistic match that say a low power SET 2A3 amp would be though! You will get sound to a fair volume though, hell a t-amp will drive my quad 57s - a notoriously hard load to drive! Sonics, although punching well above its price, just don't cut it compared to a half-decent valve amp. Fran

Apparently you've never heard the little Sonic t-amp on Cornwalls before. I have.

When I got my Sonic amp, just for fun, I connected it to my '79 Cornwalls and that little amp sounded cleaner and smoother than the old McIntosh MC250 I used to have powering them. The only thing with the Sonic is that it starts to roll off the bass around 50Hz. However, there are cheap and simple tweaks to get the amp to play all the way down to 20Hz by replacing a couple of caps in the pre-amp stage. But at that point, you are limited by the 37Hz roll-off of the Cornwalls (about 30Hz in room).

And remember, with 98dB sensitivity, that 8-10 watts from the Sonic amp goes a long way and gets plenty loud enough. With the right speakers, one of these little Sonic amps can sound almost as good as a 2A3, 300B or EL84 SE amp. I'm not the only one saying this either.

So to answer the original question... YES!

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chops /img/forum/go_quote.gif Apparently you've never heard the little Sonic t-amp on Cornwalls before. I have. When I got my Sonic amp, just for fun, I connected it to my '79 Cornwalls and that little amp sounded cleaner and smoother than the old McIntosh MC250 I used to have powering them. The only thing with the Sonic is that it starts to roll off the bass around 50Hz. However, there are cheap and simple tweaks to get the amp to play all the way down to 20Hz by replacing a couple of caps in the pre-amp stage. But at that point, you are limited by the 37Hz roll-off of the Cornwalls (about 30Hz in room). And remember, with 98dB sensitivity, that 8-10 watts from the Sonic amp goes a long way and gets plenty loud enough. With the right speakers, one of these little Sonic amps can sound almost as good as a 2A3, 300B or EL84 SE amp. I'm not the only one saying this either. So to answer the original question... YES!

I didn't know the Sonic would be that clean. I have seen the upgrades that make this a 2 or 3 hundred dollar amp but for the sound you are describing it would seem very well worth it. I have some very modified Klipsch Chorus and after all the work I did on them with new xovers, biwiring and bases and so on, I have never heard anything as good in all areas of listening from transparency to stage depth and solid tuneful bass.

 

[fran]

Actually, Chops (and Mshan + jamato8), I straight off should have admitted that I have not heard the t-amp with the kilpsch speakers. For those that read this thread later, I will amend my post above to replect that to prevent me misleading anyone.

However, I do own an input cap modded t-amp with a good 5A 13.7VDC PSU. I have listened to it on a few different sets of speakers, including my own ESL 57s. On every speaker I have listened to, I found the same result. The t-amp gives you a wide open soundstage, not bad on depth either, frequency extremes are not bad too. The input mod certainly makes quite a difference.

However the issue I found was that there was a lot of what I can only call "ambiance" missing, I suppose I could use that old cliche of saying that it had a very hifi sound, but not a musical one. Its the kind of thing that amazes on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, even 10th listen, but rapidly becomes fatiguing. If you switch back to a half decent SS amp, never mind valves, you suddenly hear what you've been missing.

Now having clarified what I meant by the above, I have to say that the sound for just the few dollars involved is amazing. Whether its better than picking up a used NAD amp on ebay is harder to say. If you do use an t-amp, think about doing the input caps mod and give it a good PSU too. Lastly, if you do want a good chip amp and are willing to do the case work etc, you should consider the Charlize amp from www.diyparadise.com. I have heard this and would say its a good step up from the t-amp but of course will cost more and you have to work at it!

Hope this helps,
Fran

 

[profsbg]

I have Klipsh Chorus II with modified x-overs, and listen to them (mainly classical but also some jazz and pop) with both Charlize T-amp and Wright 2a3 monoblocks. With NOS driver (preferred choice is RCA vt-231), I prefer the monoblocks for what I consider a smoother and more realistic and also less fatiguing sound. On the other hand, some tightness in the bass although not range necessarily is sacrificed. With other drivers (e.g. Electroharmonix 6sn7) the sound is almost indistinguishable to my ears. So the advantage of tube rolling and the finetuning of sound one can get seems like an advantage for the tube amp at least SET variety with the Klipsch in my experience.

Another setup to consider is the use of a tube preamp with the T-amp. I am experimenting with Singlepower mpx3 as a preamp. My Lavry da10 dac has preamp capability so with the two amps and two preamps I am trying to find the sound I want. Pairing of T-amps with tube preamps seems to be quite popular on the Klipsch forum, many there use Juicymusic products. Another less expensive possibility to tame the residual brightness/fatigue of Klipsch is use of a good equalizer, perhaps the Behringer deq2496 looped between the source and dac. These same considerations apply in my case to trying to optimize use of Grado sr-325i.

Anyway, these comments are somewhat digressive but do represent my thinking and tweeking. I can say that I have used the Klipsch with the Charlize directly from the Lavry with very good results, but there is some difference with SET amp. Of course the Charlize and the Sonic are much less expensive and more convenient to use in many situations. I would certainly recommend trying one.

 

[jamato8]

Interesting. So you find the highs fatiguing. I wonder if they changed the tweeter? On my Chorus, which are the first version I get a very natural progression from low to high but then I have modified everything. They are biwired and the caps can make a big difference.

 

[profsbg]

Well, I would have to check on the difference. I was aware that they changed from a front ported design in original Chorus to a passive rear radiator in Chorus II, but unsure of other changes.

To clarify, I dont find the combination of tube amp and Klipsch fatiguing. In fact, I enjoy it immensly. Occasionally and depending on recording (e.g. poorly recorded massed ensemble of strings) I can find the t-amp somewhat fatiguing. On good recordings, it isnt, but it still doesnt seem quite as smooth or natural as the SET to my ears. I think people do hook up t-amps directly from cd players (with volume control) and achieve good results, but the preferred route seems to be with a tube preamp. There is a lot of discussion and controversy about this kind of setup on the Klipsch forum.

One other thing to mention: the Charlize can also be purchased in case if you dont want to diy it (this is what I did).

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fran /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, Chops (and Mshan + jamato8), I straight off should have admitted that I have not heard the t-amp with the kilpsch speakers. For those that read this thread later, I will amend my post above to replect that to prevent me misleading anyone. However, I do own an input cap modded t-amp with a good 5A 13.7VDC PSU. I have listened to it on a few different sets of speakers, including my own ESL 57s. On every speaker I have listened to, I found the same result. The t-amp gives you a wide open soundstage, not bad on depth either, frequency extremes are not bad too. The input mod certainly makes quite a difference. However the issue I found was that there was a lot of what I can only call "ambiance" missing, I suppose I could use that old cliche of saying that it had a very hifi sound, but not a musical one. Its the kind of thing that amazes on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, even 10th listen, but rapidly becomes fatiguing. If you switch back to a half decent SS amp, never mind valves, you suddenly hear what you've been missing. Now having clarified what I meant by the above, I have to say that the sound for just the few dollars involved is amazing. Whether its better than picking up a used NAD amp on ebay is harder to say. If you do use an t-amp, think about doing the input caps mod and give it a good PSU too. Lastly, if you do want a good chip amp and are willing to do the case work etc, you should consider the Charlize amp from www.diyparadise.com. I have heard this and would say its a good step up from the t-amp but of course will cost more and you have to work at it! Hope this helps, Fran

yes, yes and yes

I switched from T-amp to Ayre and I can't be happier, only at 100X the cost ...LOL

 

[Jbucla2005]

Quote:

Originally Posted by profsbg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I would have to check on the difference. I was aware that they changed from a front ported design in original Chorus to a passive rear radiator in Chorus II, but unsure of other changes. To clarify, I dont find the combination of tube amp and Klipsch fatiguing. In fact, I enjoy it immensly. Occasionally and depending on recording (e.g. poorly recorded massed ensemble of strings) I can find the t-amp somewhat fatiguing. On good recordings, it isnt, but it still doesnt seem quite as smooth or natural as the SET to my ears. I think people do hook up t-amps directly from cd players (with volume control) and achieve good results, but the preferred route seems to be with a tube preamp. There is a lot of discussion and controversy about this kind of setup on the Klipsch forum. One other thing to mention: the Charlize can also be purchased in case if you dont want to diy it (this is what I did).

I LOVE my Super T-amp driven by an MG Head as pre-amp. I am using them with efficient speakers (4ohms, 90db) and upgraded PSU (13.5v) and I think its a fantastic small system. I hated the T-amp without the tube pre-amp.. nasally thin, bright, fatigueing, totally lacking in body and depth and listenability. But with the tube pre-amp the sounds becomes much softer and wider and more musical.

Here is my MG Head on top of the Super T-amp on it's side.

 

[fran]

Yes, I'll second that on the tube preamp. I first used my t-amp with a dynaco PAS 3 tube preamp and it certainly did tame the fatiguing a lot. I suppose it could be argued that you're just modifying one colouration with another, but I suppose thats what we do all the time with systems anyway.

BTW my PAS 3 is up on ebay at the moment, item 260061795677!

If you do use the preamp/tamp route, its well worth while recasing the t-amp, replacing the poxy little 3.5mm jack input with rca sockets, the outputs with proper binding posts and leave it turned on, volume all the way up all the time.

I'm sure you know that you have to keep the signal and returns on each channel separate on the t-amp (otherwise it would be the makings of a h'phone amp) but there are interesting experiments in using 2 t-amps for bi-amping. You could just use one t-amp per side, but more more interesting would be to use 1 t-amp for the HF on each side, another t-amp for the LF on each side. This of course will only work if you have 4 binding posts on your speakers. Check each pair for resistance/continuity before using/frying your t-amp.

Fran

 

[Chops]

Quote:

Originally Posted by profsbg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have Klipsh Chorus II with modified x-overs, and listen to them (mainly classical but also some jazz and pop) with both Charlize T-amp and Wright 2a3 monoblocks. With NOS driver (preferred choice is RCA vt-231), I prefer the monoblocks for what I consider a smoother and more realistic and also less fatiguing sound. On the other hand, some tightness in the bass although not range necessarily is sacrificed. With other drivers (e.g. Electroharmonix 6sn7) the sound is almost indistinguishable to my ears. So the advantage of tube rolling and the finetuning of sound one can get seems like an advantage for the tube amp at least SET variety with the Klipsch in my experience. Another setup to consider is the use of a tube preamp with the T-amp. I am experimenting with Singlepower mpx3 as a preamp. My Lavry da10 dac has preamp capability so with the two amps and two preamps I am trying to find the sound I want. Pairing of T-amps with tube preamps seems to be quite popular on the Klipsch forum, many there use Juicymusic products. Another less expensive possibility to tame the residual brightness/fatigue of Klipsch is use of a good equalizer, perhaps the Behringer deq2496 looped between the source and dac. These same considerations apply in my case to trying to optimize use of Grado sr-325i.

If you look around on the Klipsch forum long enough, you'll find plenty of posts and threads by me (same screen name - chops).

Most of the "harshness" of the Heritage Klipsch speakers are a result of the K55 midrange driver. They ALL have similar roughness in the midrange, K-horn, Scala, Belle, Cornwall and Heresy. It's because they all operate above 4KHz, and with the 1" throat, has a resonance that peaks around 9KHz, causing the harshness in the sound which only gets worse the louder you play them.

For this very reason, I decided to go all-out and go bi-amped with an active crossover with driver delay (phase alighn) and active EQ, and of course the main thing being disabling the Klipsch midrange and tweeter and using an Altec 511B horn and 902-8B driver from Altec's Voice of the Theater (VOTT). The Klipsch K33-E woofer operates from 50Hz to 600hz and the Altec operates from 600Hz to 20KHz. I also have a DIY push/pull sub with dual 15's that good from 50Hz down to 10Hz.

In doing all of this, I completely eliminated the harsh sound of the Cornwalls and improved the overall sound 10 fold!

 

[Chops]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fran /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, Chops (and Mshan + jamato8), I straight off should have admitted that I have not heard the t-amp with the kilpsch speakers. For those that read this thread later, I will amend my post above to replect that to prevent me misleading anyone. However, I do own an input cap modded t-amp with a good 5A 13.7VDC PSU. I have listened to it on a few different sets of speakers, including my own ESL 57s. On every speaker I have listened to, I found the same result. The t-amp gives you a wide open soundstage, not bad on depth either, frequency extremes are not bad too. The input mod certainly makes quite a difference. However the issue I found was that there was a lot of what I can only call "ambiance" missing, I suppose I could use that old cliche of saying that it had a very hifi sound, but not a musical one. Its the kind of thing that amazes on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, even 10th listen, but rapidly becomes fatiguing. If you switch back to a half decent SS amp, never mind valves, you suddenly hear what you've been missing. Now having clarified what I meant by the above, I have to say that the sound for just the few dollars involved is amazing. Whether its better than picking up a used NAD amp on ebay is harder to say. If you do use an t-amp, think about doing the input caps mod and give it a good PSU too. Lastly, if you do want a good chip amp and are willing to do the case work etc, you should consider the Charlize amp from www.diyparadise.com. I have heard this and would say its a good step up from the t-amp but of course will cost more and you have to work at it! Hope this helps, Fran

Fran,

I'm not doubting what you are saying or hearing, but you have to admit, Quads need a fairly beefy amp with plenty of current potential to sound decent, and so asking the little Sonic T-amp to resolve fine ambiance detail along with everything else on such a demanding speaker is a little unfair, compared to a traditional SS or Valve amp.

Also, even on the quietest passages with the Quads, I'm sure the little Sonic amp was near taxing itself just to produce something usefull through your ESL 57's. Actually, I'm quite impressed that it did as well as you say it did with the ESL's!

Now strap on a pair of loudspeakers with a sensitivity of 98dB+ at 1W/1M and then tell us what you hear.

My Altec 511B/902-8B horn/driver combo is rated at 107dB 1W/1M. I power them with a little 35watt per channel Crown D-75A amp, a very, very clean little amp. I would be tempted to see what differences could be heard by switching it out with the Sonic T-amp. That Crown amp is awfully hard to beat at any price, much less at $29.95!

 

[fran]

Yep, I agree with what you're saying. ESLs can be hard to drive. I also tried the t-amp with B&W, some old mission 763is, acoustic energy 109s and system audio speakers - more or less the same result asI described above. They would all be in the 85dB to 92dB range or thereabouts.

No doubt it would sound very different on an easier load, and your klipsch may just be the ticket for that. Now that I think about it I seem to remember people talking about using a heatsink on the chip which brought further improvements - that may just have been the result of better cooling on a heavy load.

At the end of the day, you can't go wrong with spending the $30! Its a tweakers delight (although those sm components are a pain!). It think its safe to say that its unlikely you'll get better sound for the money anywhere else.

To the OP - please bear in mind that I'm just shooting my mouth off here and describing what I heard in my system, and must bow to the actual experience of Chops who has actually heard the t-amp with the speakers you are talking about!!!!!


Fran