Is $2000 The Hi-End Headphone Sweet Spot in Mid-2024?

Jun 4, 2024 at 5:53 PM Post #16 of 121
Wavetheory
What do you think is the performance jump from $2000 to the higher levels? If you could somehow quantify…
Quantify? That's tough. I know sometimes we audiophiles like to say things like "Thing A is 90% of Thing B" and I really don't find that very useful. Do you and I (or anyone else) agree on the size of each 1% increment? Very likely not. For me the biggest advantage that select models from the TOTL tier (or "summit" or whatever you want to call it) offer is realism. On the right signal chains Susvara and Utopia can sound almost eerily real. That requires the right combination of tuning/tonality, resolution, and timing. Susvara and Utopia are just two examples. There are others that can do that for me. But then, there are other models that work better for other listeners. There are also some listeners who don't value realism the way I do, either. All of that is fine. I can only report on what I experience relative to what I value.

Clear as mud? Haha. I'm guessing that's not really the answer you were looking for but it's what I can give you.
 
Jun 4, 2024 at 6:04 PM Post #17 of 121
Totally agree with this statement. I would think midfi would be more around the $1k cans sourced around dacs/amp around the same value. When you start approaching 2k, you start stepping on highfi cans which really can be utilized better with high end dacs/amp.Not to say they won't sound good on lower end equipment. It's just where do you want to start your adventure into hifi.






Too bad most people will never hear what most of these $1k+ cans are actually capable of given the ubiquity of mid-fi (and lower quality) electronics people pair those with. It's arguable that it doesn't make sense to pair $2k cans with $20k source and $5k amp but that's just how the cookies crumble in the headphone value chain. By the time you are done building a rig that can extract 99%+ of the performance from these $2k cans, you might as well step up to $4k+ cans because $2k is really just a rounding error at that point.
 
Jun 4, 2024 at 10:39 PM Post #18 of 121
Eh I think the whole price performance thing is mostly a marketing construct. There's a bit of correlation, but not as much as you'd think, and good headphones can be had at most price levels. The idea that things get uniformly better as you move up in price has not held up to my experience.

It's more like there's been some very good headphones at the $2k price point released recently, and it's hard to imagine needing to spend more. But the same can be said of the HD650 in the right system too.

Mid-fi, hi-fi, it's all marketing bollocks. Good sound is good sound, and you can get it relatively cheap if you know where to look.

Having said that, some things, like good classic estats, will sound amazing and will break the whole diminishing returns concept right in half. But a good estat system also doesn't have to be insanely expensive either, it's just that a lot of the more modern stuff we have on the market now sounds like crap, so it's natural to think that you have to spend tons and tons to get it to where it should be.
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 1:57 AM Post #20 of 121
@WaveTheory
so you didn´t mention Caldera Open because you haven´t heard them yet, right?
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 3:33 AM Post #22 of 121
I ordered a HE1000se last week, I had one for a year and a half before that. For me, the HE1000se is unrivaled for up to €4000. I also listen to a lot of metal and I mostly miss the bass in the music. A few album recommendations where you can hear the bass well would be very interesting.
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 4:00 AM Post #23 of 121
Honestly, when it comes to the question: "What do you think? Is $2000 emerging as a hi-end headphone sweet spot in the middle of 2024?", I believe it's crucial to consider how we define a hi-end headphone. Is it defined by its price? Its resolution? Or, as you mentioned in your video, its ability to tweak its sound and have modular replaceable parts? (By the way, great video! I strongly agree with your views on the YH5000SE, although I've never dared to express these opinion sin public for fear of getting into quarrel lol).

If we judge by price alone, you'll notice that the current flagships, especially those summit-fi headphones like the Final D8000 Pro LE, YH5000SE, Mysphere, and LCD-5, etc. etc., all exceed $2000 easily. And in fact, they far exceed it (I actually wanted to use the example of the Susvara U, which is priced at four times your supposed sweet spot, but I'm afraid this would lead to the same kind of price debate that happened in the Susvara threads).

Using price to determine whether a headphone is hi-end can be problematic. It risks becoming a dilemma where comment is constantly tied down by the price. Especially when you find that despite its pricey price, the sound it produces isn't as expected, one might face skepticism from others: "Hey, how can such an expensive headphone sound like this? Must be same problem with your setup/matching." Or one might fall into self-doubt: "Is there something wrong with my pair? Is my listening preference completely different from others?"

Therefore, I don't think relying on price alone to decide whether a headphone is hi-end is very reliable. But coming back to your question, my thoughts are that if we disregard those ultra-pricey-flagships with exorbitant prices that can single-handedly skew the average (how much is Noble’s diamond-gold IEM again? $10,000?), I do agree with your point! I believe $2000 is indeed a sweet spot. Within this price range, you can find many headphones that are very close to the top in terms of resolution. The HEK SE you mentioned is a great example.

Besides the three mentioned in your video, there are many other headphones available for under $2000 that still offer great enjoyment and exceptional quality. For instance, the Arya, the well-known HD800, and if consider second-hand options, the choices expand even further—LCD24, Stax 009, and many more.

So, I think the most important thing is the enjoyment: stick to your budget and buy the headphone within the range that makes you the happiest. Regardless of the price or whether it’s considered high-end, as long as it’s your sweet spot, that’s all that matters.

The sweet spot is whatever you can afford without your wife/husband killing you XD
Lmao, I couldn't help but laugh out loud in the office:thumbsup:
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 10:15 AM Post #24 of 121
Jun 5, 2024 at 10:44 AM Post #25 of 121
I really want to laud WaveTheory for his process - it's difficult, if not impossible to find someone who has the correct attitude and is as balanced in his opinions and perceptions. A friend of mine put it nicely: "He really tries to remove himself from the review as best he can". The fact that he's willing to use the time and effort just to make a comparison video like this means a lot. Some reviewers seem to scoff at making content like this; almost as if they think they're above it, while actually this is actually incredibly important as a frame of reference.

I would like to note that it's fairly clear that the HE1000se seems the best overall headphone of the three. It's difficult for me to collect in my mind that these three are about equal, when WaveTheory goes on about multiple things the HEKse has over the other two, while the others have only one aspect each that win over the HEKse. Looking at other sources, I also can't really find a strong indication about how these line up, so we'll have to see in time where people's opinions land. I can understand, however, than if one is looking for a headphone in this price range, their preferences might well make them like one of the other two more, while not heavily missing out on other aspects of sound. Personally, I'm heavily leaning towards the HEKse because the spatial presentation and the frequency extension at both ends is going to open it up to so many use cases for me - orchestral music, atmosphere in games, and electronic music. Although, one thing that bothers me about the HEKse is the treble and the detail-forward nature could become a problem on mid/lower-end systems, especially since I'm shopping for DACs and amps for about $500-1000 each. I've locked myself in towards something that sounds warmer and seems to have little to no complaints about sibilance, but if you don't have that, it's definitely something to keep in mind.

I'm not experienced at all in the super high-end. But from talking to a friend who is; the kind of guy who took speaker amps to the Susvara and HE6seV2 and reading a heckton of impressions online, I think you can easily get a $2000 headphone over a $4000+ because of preference. His comparison of the Susvara and HE1000se went pretty much like: 'The Susvara is a better all-rounder and does bass better, but the HE1000se does orchestral music better, and might have a bit more clarity'. Debate on that if you want, but I would take that to its logical conclusion and say that someone could, quite easily, take one of these trio and do an endgame setup with them. If you look at headphones around $1000, Arya Stealth, Organic, LCD-X, some ZMF's, HD 800 (used market), it's clear that this trio of headphones trounce them from nearly every angle. They're on another level. The Susvara and Utopia, though? The distinction is not as clear (it may be clear for some of you, but it isn't as clear in general), and I think someone buys either one of them or the 2K trio because of preferences in sound character, rather than technicalities. So, yes, $2000 (prob soon to be $1700-ish) is absolutely the sweet spot as it stands now.
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 11:00 AM Post #26 of 121
Honestly, when it comes to the question: "What do you think? Is $2000 emerging as a hi-end headphone sweet spot in the middle of 2024?", I believe it's crucial to consider how we define a hi-end headphone. Is it defined by its price? Its resolution? Or, as you mentioned in your video, its ability to tweak its sound and have modular replaceable parts? (By the way, great video! I strongly agree with your views on the YH5000SE, although I've never dared to express these opinion sin public for fear of getting into quarrel lol).

If we judge by price alone, you'll notice that the current flagships, especially those summit-fi headphones like the Final D8000 Pro LE, YH5000SE, Mysphere, and LCD-5, etc. etc., all exceed $2000 easily. And in fact, they far exceed it (I actually wanted to use the example of the Susvara U, which is priced at four times your supposed sweet spot, but I'm afraid this would lead to the same kind of price debate that happened in the Susvara threads).

Using price to determine whether a headphone is hi-end can be problematic. It risks becoming a dilemma where comment is constantly tied down by the price. Especially when you find that despite its pricey price, the sound it produces isn't as expected, one might face skepticism from others: "Hey, how can such an expensive headphone sound like this? Must be same problem with your setup/matching." Or one might fall into self-doubt: "Is there something wrong with my pair? Is my listening preference completely different from others?"

Therefore, I don't think relying on price alone to decide whether a headphone is hi-end is very reliable. But coming back to your question, my thoughts are that if we disregard those ultra-pricey-flagships with exorbitant prices that can single-handedly skew the average (how much is Noble’s diamond-gold IEM again? $10,000?), I do agree with your point! I believe $2000 is indeed a sweet spot. Within this price range, you can find many headphones that are very close to the top in terms of resolution. The HEK SE you mentioned is a great example.

Besides the three mentioned in your video, there are many other headphones available for under $2000 that still offer great enjoyment and exceptional quality. For instance, the Arya, the well-known HD800, and if consider second-hand options, the choices expand even further—LCD24, Stax 009, and many more.

So, I think the most important thing is the enjoyment: stick to your budget and buy the headphone within the range that makes you the happiest. Regardless of the price or whether it’s considered high-end, as long as it’s your sweet spot, that’s all that matters.


Lmao, I couldn't help but laugh out loud in the office:thumbsup:
Interesting points. Thanks for posting!

You are correct that using price alone as a measure of quality or enjoyment can be misleading, at times. And unfortunately said misleadings are most often not in the consumer's favor; ie they overpaid for what they received. However, I think price is still one of the better general guides for getting some sense of for what you're trading your money. In just about every category of commerce, there is a general assumption, usually borne out in experience, that paying more money means the payer gets something more from the payee. Depending on what type of commerce is happening, the "something more" could be higher quality, increased performance, expanded scope of services, the promise of increased longevity (hopefully paired with the additional service that that can require), or special privilege(s), among others.

When we pay more for a Cadillac than a Chevrolet, we expect to receive features, performance, and experiences above and beyond what the Chevrolet offers, yes?

When we pay more for the RTX-4090, we expect higher framerates at higher resolutions than the RTX-3070 offers.

When we pay more the commercial free Hulu package, we expect, you know, no commercials.

These are just examples.

Now, things get muddied when there are other factors (name tax!) involved. In audio, it can get particularly sticky because there are a lot of categories in which there can be "more"- resolution, improved tonality, better build quality, improved comfort, aesthetics, just to name a few - combined with high variations in preferences and perceptions. However, across my reviewing of over 100 headphones in past 5 years from the entry level all the way through the TOTL, there is a general correlation between improved sonics and price. Are there some that break the curve? Yes - and in both directions. Unfortunately, to my ears, there are more that break the curve in a way that's bad for consumers than in a way that's good for consumers. So yes, caution is warranted and price is not a guarantee. I'll also acknowledge that in the $3k+ range, that correlation becomes less robust. But, price is a starting point.

So then what qualifies as hi-end? That can be very loose. But I'll say that at approximately $1000 we're getting into "I'm really serious about this" kind of consumer. So, I'll propose that as a possible starting point to define "hi-end".

Thanks again for your thoughts. They are much appreciated.
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 11:35 AM Post #27 of 121
I really want to laud WaveTheory for his process - it's difficult, if not impossible to find someone who has the correct attitude and is as balanced in his opinions and perceptions. A friend of mine put it nicely: "He really tries to remove himself from the review as best he can". The fact that he's willing to use the time and effort just to make a comparison video like this means a lot. Some reviewers seem to scoff at making content like this; almost as if they think they're above it, while actually this is actually incredibly important as a frame of reference.

I would like to note that it's fairly clear that the HE1000se seems the best overall headphone of the three. It's difficult for me to collect in my mind that these three are about equal, when WaveTheory goes on about multiple things the HEKse has over the other two, while the others have only one aspect each that win over the HEKse. Looking at other sources, I also can't really find a strong indication about how these line up, so we'll have to see in time where people's opinions land. I can understand, however, than if one is looking for a headphone in this price range, their preferences might well make them like one of the other two more, while not heavily missing out on other aspects of sound. Personally, I'm heavily leaning towards the HEKse because the spatial presentation and the frequency extension at both ends is going to open it up to so many use cases for me - orchestral music, atmosphere in games, and electronic music. Although, one thing that bothers me about the HEKse is the treble and the detail-forward nature could become a problem on mid/lower-end systems, especially since I'm shopping for DACs and amps for about $500-1000 each. I've locked myself in towards something that sounds warmer and seems to have little to no complaints about sibilance, but if you don't have that, it's definitely something to keep in mind.

I'm not experienced at all in the super high-end. But from talking to a friend who is; the kind of guy who took speaker amps to the Susvara and HE6seV2 and reading a heckton of impressions online, I think you can easily get a $2000 headphone over a $4000+ because of preference. His comparison of the Susvara and HE1000se went pretty much like: 'The Susvara is a better all-rounder and does bass better, but the HE1000se does orchestral music better, and might have a bit more clarity'. Debate on that if you want, but I would take that to its logical conclusion and say that someone could, quite easily, take one of these trio and do an endgame setup with them. If you look at headphones around $1000, Arya Stealth, Organic, LCD-X, some ZMF's, HD 800 (used market), it's clear that this trio of headphones trounce them from nearly every angle. They're on another level. The Susvara and Utopia, though? The distinction is not as clear (it may be clear for some of you, but it isn't as clear in general), and I think someone buys either one of them or the 2K trio because of preferences in sound character, rather than technicalities. So, yes, $2000 (prob soon to be $1700-ish) is absolutely the sweet spot as it stands now.
i would not write off LCDx (situational with some music, better with mod) and definitely not 800S. I have replaced HEK with 800S and 800S sounded more correctly to me in terms of everything except for sub bass with significant improvements in terms of mid range purity and timbre. I am no longer interested in any planar now given I have tried to make them work since 2010.

Also it does not matter if one cans is better than another in all areas but one, if that one area makes you not like the cans those cans gotta go.
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 11:42 AM Post #28 of 121
OG Utopia under 2K used as long as you have the right amp (not the most expensive necessarily): unbeatable for me
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 11:58 AM Post #29 of 121
I think it's been around that $1500-2000 mark for a couple years now, but now it's getting even tighter. Hifiman is AGGRESSIVELY pricing down their products to try and muscle out their competition, and now there's fewer worthy contenders than there used to be. That's definitely the price category I operate in. Any higher and the price/performance ratio gets completely out of whack.

P.s. I'd put the CA-1a up there with the best value cans around the $2k mark.

It's crazy to think the $2000 Is needed to get into some good high end phones. Unfortunate sign of the times.

I don't think he means it's needed, just that it doesn't make much sense to go higher unless you're paying exorbitant prices for gear.

Good headphones are available at nearly every price point, obviously.
 
Jun 5, 2024 at 12:00 PM Post #30 of 121
It's crazy to think the $2000 Is needed to get into some good high end phones. Unfortunate sign of the times.

There's the HE1KV2 for 1K or even less than 1K used and Utopia used for 1.6-1.7K. You're pretty much getting more bang for buck than the 2000 quoted ones by Wave IMHO.
 

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