[pdickerson]

To which I would ask: what in your opinion is limited by those DACs? Certainly, poor DACs exist in smartphones, but today's modern A+ smartphone are every bit the match for high-end DAPs at normal to loud listening levels. If you want to stretch to benchmark-making volumes at which no one in their right mind listens, I agree that smartphones are behind. And even then, plugging in a pair of headphones at those volume levels will show the problems in high-end DAPs faster than it will in high-end smartphones. I tend to speak about measurable stuff, though, as personal preference, placebo, etc., are impossible to quantify. 

Volume-match and double blind tested, I'd put my money on the vast majority of golden eared audiophiles not hearing statistically significant differences between today's top-performing DAP and top-performing smartphone. 

Mind if I ask what equipment you have and the type of music you listen to?

 

[SparkOnShore]

Your contradicting yourself. If the current w1 chip with AAC over bluetooth is "good enough" why would other companies push the envelope to develop better bluetooth tech if apple THEMSELVES, thinks its a pointless venture. hmmm, yeah no, makes 0 sense does it.

Bluetooth can be developed and improved without the idiocy of removing a universally accepted jack, it does absolutely nothing. People seriously think apple has too much sway when in reality, companies dont give a damn what apple does with their devices. It WILL NOT change their development cycles, ESPECIALLY with bluetooth

Since you are a fanatic Apple hater there is no logic to what you're saying. But what the heck, lets reply to you;
Other companies try to sell high quality by AptX and the like. Apple believes that high quality for most people's ears has been achieved with AAC and W1, and their developments over time of course. I agree with Apple. You agree with the other companies. To each their own. What exactly is so difficult for you to understand???

Apple has given many technical explanations why they chose to get rid of the HO. I agree with their choice since I also prefer to not have anymore tangled cables around me. And if I need to use my old wired iems, I will use the adapter. As simple as that. I agree with Apple and you disagree. To each their own...

Finally my opinion is that everybody cares Apple a lot because it's the biggest tech company in the world for the time being. So their decisions influence everyone. You believe that Apple is nothing. It's ok. Then go and buy the exploding Samsung devices with the crippled Android OS. No problem with me...

 

[shurealltheway]

Since you are a fanatic Apple hater there is no logic to what you're saying. But what the heck, lets reply to you;
Other companies try to sell high quality by AptX and the like. Apple believes that high quality for most people's ears has been achieved with AAC and W1, and their developments over time of course. I agree with Apple. You agree with the other companies. To each their own. What exactly is so difficult for you to understand???

Apple has given many technical explanations why they chose to get rid of the HO. I agree with their choice since I also prefer to not have anymore tangled cables around me. And if I need to use my old wired iems, I will use the adapter. As simple as that. I agree with Apple and you disagree. To each their own...

Finally my opinion is that everybody cares Apple a lot because it's the biggest tech company in the world for the time being. So their decisions influence everyone. You believe that Apple is nothing. It's ok. Then go and buy the exploding Samsung devices with the crippled Android OS. No problem with me...

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I think re the first point above, most people use them because they come in the box (hence,in their eyes, free), not really any other reason...

More power to them though I suppose.

Of course, you're right about that. But if you check for example the EarPods threads here in Head Fi, you will see how many people who own much more expensive earphones, praise them for what they are. No one said of course to replace your Shures or Westones with EarPods!... I just said that they are no garbage, they are ok tuned for casual listening and are quite usable on the opposite of other bundled earphones that are real garbage...

 

[RugbyPlayer]

Since you are a fanatic Apple hater there is no logic to what you're saying. But what the heck, lets reply to you;
Other companies try to sell high quality by AptX and the like. Apple believes that high quality for most people's ears has been achieved with AAC and W1, and their developments over time of course. I agree with Apple. You agree with the other companies. To each their own. What exactly is so difficult for you to understand???

Apple has given many technical explanations why they chose to get rid of the HO. I agree with their choice since I also prefer to not have anymore tangled cables around me. And if I need to use my old wired iems, I will use the adapter. As simple as that. I agree with Apple and you disagree. To each their own...

Finally my opinion is that everybody cares Apple a lot because it's the biggest tech company in the world for the time being. So their decisions influence everyone. You believe that Apple is nothing. It's ok. Then go and buy the exploding Samsung devices with the crippled Android OS. No problem with me...

and yet you failed to address the fact that you have contradicted yourself on more than one occasion. Youve said that the removal of the jack will force others to improve upon Bluetooth technology, which is completely and utterly false. Apple themselves dont think bluetooth needs to be improved, and sorry, the w1 chip isnt improving, its a wrapping, its doing the EXACT same thing with a slightly prettier interface. 
 
Again, how does apple force the issue to improve bluetooth when they dont even use the best available tech in that area in terms of data transfer? How does removing the jack force companies that are already working bluetooth to change their plans to...improving bluetooth? You literally answered nothing, at all, and just spouted the same lines you already have with 0 evidence of actual upside

 

[SparkOnShore]

and yet you failed to address the fact that you have contradicted yourself on more than one occasion. Youve said that the removal of the jack will force others to improve upon Bluetooth technology, which is completely and utterly false. Apple themselves dont think bluetooth needs to be improved, and sorry, the w1 chip isnt improving, its a wrapping, its doing the EXACT same thing with a slightly prettier interface. 

Again, how does apple force the issue to improve bluetooth when they dont even use the best available tech in that area in terms of data transfer? How does removing the jack force companies that are already working bluetooth to change their plans to...improving bluetooth? You literally answered nothing, at all, and just spouted the same lines you already have with 0 evidence of actual upside

I never wrote that "removal of jack will force other companies to improve upon Bluetooth" It's just on your imagination or you gathered it by yourself... Apple doesn't care what others are doing for that matter. According to Apple, AAC with the fast pairing and other advancements of W1 is good enough for most people's ears. I happen to agree with that point of view...

I recommend you to do a blind test between the AAC over Bluetooth and "the best tech available in data transfer". If you can discern even a slight difference then I am congratulating you for having the famous "Golden Ears"!! But since I and a lot more people on earth, do not hear that difference, we are happy with Apple's version of Bluetooth...

 

[Roen]

Arguing specs is much worse than actually sitting down and doing a double blind to see if you can actually hear the difference in specs.
 
For example, the old FLAC / 320 test on the same mastered track using a good pair of monitoring IEMs. I can hear the difference, it's small, but it makes me want to keep all my files in FLAC.
 
Can I hear the same difference on all my IEMs? No, I can't, so the difference doesn't actually mean that much to me.
 
Seems like some of you that think one tech is better than the other should actually just see if that "better-ness" is worth it for yourself.

 

[SparkOnShore]

Arguing specs is much worse than actually sitting down and doing a double blind to see if you can actually hear the difference in specs.

For example, the old FLAC / 320 test on the same mastered track using a good pair of monitoring IEMs. I can hear the difference, it's small, but it makes me want to keep all my files in FLAC.

Can I hear the same difference on all my IEMs? No, I can't, so the difference doesn't actually mean that much to me.

Seems like some of you that think one tech is better than the other should actually just see if that "better-ness" is worth it for yourself.

I couldn't agree with you more!! That's exactly what I am saying here from the start...

 

[shigzeo]

Mind if I ask what equipment you have and the type of music you listen to?

I don't mind. My typical portable listening setup is whatever is true gapless for when listening to trance and live albums, and anything when not. To that end, I use iPhone 6, a coax and 0,5Ω modified AK100, an AK70, and a whole slew of earphones ranging from customs (K10 and VE6) to AKT8iE, Ultrasone IQ, and Grado GR10.

 

[shigzeo]

  and yet you failed to address the fact that you have contradicted yourself on more than one occasion. Youve said that the removal of the jack will force others to improve upon Bluetooth technology, which is completely and utterly false. Apple themselves dont think bluetooth needs to be improved, and sorry, the w1 chip isnt improving, its a wrapping, its doing the EXACT same thing with a slightly prettier interface. 
 
Again, how does apple force the issue to improve bluetooth when they dont even use the best available tech in that area in terms of data transfer? How does removing the jack force companies that are already working bluetooth to change their plans to...improving bluetooth? You literally answered nothing, at all, and just spouted the same lines you already have with 0 evidence of actual upside

It forces the improvement of the market by encouraging many players to enter. When you have one or two prominent companies driving innovation in the arena, you have stagnation. When a larger player drops a necessary item, and that player has the mindshare Apple have, it encourages many entries into the market. I have received dozens of marketing from companies which explain exactly that: Apple have or will (prior to the release of the iPhone 7) drop the headphone jack and as such we have worked on this Bluetooth DAC/amp, or earphone. Where AAC-based codecs may not push the boundary for absolute transfer speed, Apple's position as company with largest market mindshare and their subsequent dropping of a feature will push the market forward. The emails I have in my inboxes are just some of the evidence for it. Yes, a lot of what is released will suck. But there will be some gems: that lower hiss levels to AK100 level, that ensure drop-free connection, that push battery life forward, that drive signal under harsh load - and these are the things that count in the end. And Apple's decision is the impetus behind much of this gathering competition.

 

[pdickerson]

I don't mind. My typical portable listening setup is whatever is true gapless for when listening to trance and live albums, and anything when not. To that end, I use iPhone 6, a coax and 0,5Ω modified AK100, an AK70, and a whole slew of earphones ranging from customs (K10 and VE6) to AKT8iE, Ultrasone IQ, and Grado GR10.

:age?

 

[shigzeo]

:age?

I don't see what that has to do with anything, but I'm 37 (just). Married. One kid. 

 

[RugbyPlayer]

 
It forces the improvement of the market by encouraging many players to enter. When you have one or two prominent companies driving innovation in the arena, you have stagnation. When a larger player drops a necessary item, and that player has the mindshare Apple have, it encourages many entries into the market. I have received dozens of marketing from companies which explain exactly that: Apple have or will (prior to the release of the iPhone 7) drop the headphone jack and as such we have worked on this Bluetooth DAC/amp, or earphone. Where AAC-based codecs may not push the boundary for absolute transfer speed, Apple's position as company with largest market mindshare and their subsequent dropping of a feature will push the market forward. The emails I have in my inboxes are just some of the evidence for it. Yes, a lot of what is released will suck. But there will be some gems: that lower hiss levels to AK100 level, that ensure drop-free connection, that push battery life forward, that drive signal under harsh load - and these are the things that count in the end. And Apple's decision is the impetus behind much of this gathering competition.

except this isnt going to do that. Youll have the same exact companies making the same bluetooth headphones but charging more because they have the w1 chip. Seriously, this isnt going to push ANYTHING in the market. Bose will do what bose does, Sony will do what Sony does, Lg will do what LG does, they are all making and improving bluetooth every single year, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with apple

 

[justinlovenow]

I'm looking forward to audio playback performance (blind) test between iPhone 7/7+ and LG V20.

 

[shigzeo]

  except this isnt going to do that. Youll have the same exact companies making the same bluetooth headphones but charging more because they have the w1 chip. Seriously, this isnt going to push ANYTHING in the market. Bose will do what bose does, Sony will do what Sony does, Lg will do what LG does, they are all making and improving bluetooth every single year, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with apple

If you care to come back to this conversation in a year or so, I'll be happy to eat my hat if I'm wrong. But as I said, I have been inundated with direct emails advertising precise reasons that new bluetooth amps/dacs, and earphones have been developed. I don't care what Sennheiser or Sony do. I care about how the market at large responds. And sure, my evidence is anecdotal, but it points to companies jumping onto the bandwagon. Without a bandwagon, or high-pressure opening ripe for exploitation, few innovations are made. 
 
I'm happy for you to disagree with me. But I don't think you understand the degree to which a single, high-profile product can affect the market.