[Ragnar-BY]

requirement for classifieds ads pictures to have a note with timestamp and user name as additional proof that seller actually owns the item

Much more effective than forcing the use of PayPal.

 

[AxelCloris]

PayPal is not the only service online which offers a level of protection for both the buyer and the seller, and if there are alternatives in your region that do this please don't hesitate to share them with us so we can review that platform's terms. PayPal happens to be the largest and most accessible platform with a level of protection for both parties which is why we recommend their Goods and Services payment method.

Head-Fi Classifieds is a space for the global Head-Fi community to coordinate person-to-person sales, and while we understand there's no way to please 100% of the community with our guidelines, they are designed to offer those taking part as much protection as we reasonably can across multiple regions of the world; many of which have their own unique guidelines regarding online payments, scam attempts, taxes, and more. If local laws, conversion rates, shipping policies, or other concerns prevent anyone from using protected payment methods, there are several other sites online that we can suggest for buying and selling.

 

[SCBob]

I just want to thank the moderators for doing what they can to make the buy / sell process more secure. Nothing is perfect and I think buyer and seller Classifieds Feedback is the best gauge to determine transaction security. That being said, I am going to miss the opportunity to buy a Focal Utopia for $400.00

 

[Ragnar-BY]

@AxelCloris
I've used bank transfer many times here also. I just didn't know it wasn't allowed. I've sold with it, I've bought with it and everything was fine. Now I know that this is not possible anymore. OK. As I bought only from reliable sellers with positive feedback, I will continue to do so. I have not cheated anyone before, and I will not do so in the future. What has changed for me? Nothing, except that now I am obliged to pay PayPal even when I do not need their services.

I understand that you have good intentions. But these new rules just add cost/inconvenience to some users and don't help others at all, since PayPal already was an option.

 

[joe]

To be clear: The PayPal rule has been in place for years, as it offers some type of recourse/protection for both buyer and seller if something seems to go sideways in a transaction. The only new change is the requirement of 2FA to create a listing.

 

[Stu Paddasso]

That's very US-centric approach. PayPal in Europe isn't that popular and not without a reason. In EU we use bank transfers mostly. It's cheap, reliable and could be easily tracked later by police if the need arises. You can't open bank account without showing your government issued ID. Criminals never use normal bank transfer, they are always trying to lure you into some online intermediary platforms (PayPal as well) to use an additional link behind which you can hide the identity of the recipient of money.

Another problem is PayPal conversion rate. I live in Poland and if somebody pays me in USD or EUR I can't withdraw funds in USD or EUR to my bank account. I'm forced to convert money into PLN before withdrawal. PayPal conversion rate is always worse than normal bank exchange rate, so I actually pay twice: once openly when the PayPal is charging me a commission, and the second time is hidden when the PayPal is forcing me to exchange currency at a bad

In Canada, bank e-transfers are not tracked & the banks don't guarantee the security of the transfer. Once money is sent you're on your own.

 

[SCBob]

Once? Spellcheck strikes again.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

In Canada, bank e-transfers are not tracked & the banks don't guarantee the security of the transfer. Want's money is sent you're on your own.

I'm sure that PayPal became so popular on North American continent for some reason. In Poland nobody would ever think about PP on any local site. Most online stores won't take it and only work with cards, phone payments or bank transfers. In Germany, online stores almost always accept PayPal, but private ads often say "no PayPal" and no one perceives this as a sign of some kind of fraud attempt.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

You can use whatever mean of payment you and other party agree. Paypal is just a "recommended" method.
Move by head-fi staff is to help stopping hijackers from impersonating as seasoned head-fiers on Classifieds as that was an alarming trend recently, that's it.

 

[classfolkphile]

Easy solution. If you place a want to buy ad and someone contacts you, have them place a classified ad on headfi and then buy from it. You as the buyer need to implement some security measures when you invite anyone to offer you product. If the seller places a simple ad, you know the person is the owner of that head fi account. Often times, that is enough to prevent a scammer from scamming you. This is a reasonable authentication request from you as the buyer.

I know a lot more people who have been scammed off head fi accounts that were hacked than were scammed on want to buy ads. I am included in that group. In my case, the scammer got control of both the same owners head fi account and audiogon account. I found the real owner on Facebook and he took back access to both of his accounts after I told him what was going on. I tried to find the owner when the transaction started seeming fishy and it was after I made a Paypal G&S payment.

I did make the G&S payment thinking I was safe with Paypal buyer protections and my credit card. But, the scammer was able to cancel my dispute on Paypal. Once you cancel a dispute, you can no longer dispute it again. The only thing that saved me was Paypal put a 10 day hold on the payment so they could not get access to the money. I called Paypal, told them about the hacked account and they put the dispute back on. I did the same thing with my credit card. Fortunately, I did not get a fake delivery notification which some have reported to me. If scammers can get fake delivery notifications. Or, if they ship and empty box to your home. They can provide proof of delivery which is normally sufficient to prove that the transaction was fulfilled.

How was the scammer able to cancel your dispute?

 

[Whitigir]

You can use whatever mean of payment you and other party agree. Paypal is just a "recommended" method.
Move by head-fi staff is to help stopping hijackers from impersonating as seasoned head-fiers on Classifieds as that was an alarming trend recently, that's it.

It isn’t just a simple “recommendation” but a “requirement”.

 

[goldwerger]

a few Head-Fi’ers requested an additional layer of account security be required to take part in Head-Fi Classifieds. After consideration the Head-Fi team agrees that an additional layer may go a long way in helping the community be safer in their Head-Fi Classifieds transactions. Starting today, Head-Fi is requiring two-factor authentication (2FA) for any Head-Fi’ers looking to post listings in Head-Fi Classifieds

A huge thanks Brian to you and the Head-Fi team. This is best practice protection for any sensitive online service, and the best first line of defense in preventing "account takeovers". These have been on the rise on Head-Fi in the past year (and everywhere), and while nothing is ever failproof in fraud, it will make it exceedingly hard and much less attracking to fraudsters in terms of risk/reward.

Really appreciate having this in place. I personally implement 2FA across all online services where I have any financial transactions or sensitive data, and would recommend this for everyone. It is very little effort for a lot of security. Like a smart colleague once told me, "Don't make perfect the enemy of good". This isn't perfect, but it's very, very good.

Easy solution. If you place a want to buy ad and someone contacts you, have them place a classified ad on headfi and then buy from it.

That's a great idea Jim!

Paypal G&S does not protect both buyer and seller from fraud

Actually true. But what it does practically do is give you time for effective recourse. Having gone through a couple of bad apples in the past, here is what I've learned:

PayPal is actually not necesary your friend in these situations because, formally, in a G&S transaction they become the actual seller of record. So the vendor your credit card company will face is PayPal as a seller (who in turn will have their own process with the actual seller they are fronting). So, when disputing fraud, you are actually disputing a PayPal charge, and they are left short-changed and forced to chase the actual seller and potentially be the party losing money if you are refunded by them and they can't recuperate the funds from the seller's account (especially if that PayPal account was also fake).

However, in a F&F transcation or a direct bank transfer of any kind, the money instantly transfer and settles, and therefor is instantly gone. Credit card transactions, which underline PayPal trasnactions, take a few days to settle. While you should start a dispute with PayPal if a fraud occurs, your best recrouse will likely be a dispute through your credit card. If you are based in the US, Amex is the absolutely best in my experience that regards and will instanly put a hold on your bahalf and protect you by default from any online fraud; but generally all credit card compamies would have a dispute mechanism that should be helpful. I am unsure how this works in other countries, so this commentary is entirely U.S. specific.

P.S. A track record of 100 % positive feedback from 33 users is now worthless...

why?

A deal too good to be true is a strong noob trap

That is universally the best advice one could give Daniel.

Anytime I have ever seen a deal that was too good to be true, it always was.

If there were a bible for classifieds, this would be the first commendmant: "Thy shall not pursue a deal that is too good to be true, because it is not".

 

[msing539]

Where did the for sale, for trade, looking to purchase etc. go? Are we now just using WTB... like Reddit?

 

[beaux]

Thanks for all the work you have done to make head-fi a more secure place to buy and sell. I just found I am unable to edit my ads already posted. Do I have to create a new one or is it a bug to be fixed.

 

[xxx1313]

P.S. A track record of 100 % positive feedback from 33 users is now worthless...

why?

Because I will not list classifieds ads here on Head-Fi any more after so many years. Even Ebay Germany (not only their classifieds section, but also their auction platform) is cheaper now for sellers than listing a classified ad on Head-Fi because of the forced use of a payment processor such as Paypal G&S. It is that simple, sorry to say. I know that my personal action is completely unimportant for Head-Fi, but this new classifieds policy will alienate and expel especially many sellers from Europe, because Paypal (and similar also costly but even less common services) is not so widely used in Europe and does add extra cost without being 100% secure for each party, both buyer and seller.

Cheers,
Bernie