[zoidbergslo]

First off hello to all of you.
Like many others my first post will be in this section. I was reading this forum for the past two weeks searching for my new headphones but I couldn't find all the answers so I hope someone will help me in choosing the right pair. I know its hard to get the right balance with only one pair of headphones but lets try to find the right compromise.
 
First of a really brief history and gear that will be used. My first and only real headphones were Sennheisers HD555 but after I got rid of my "Hi-Fi" receiver about a year ago I didn't have the right gear to use them so I gave them to my sister (she is really happy with them since she used to use Samsung earbuds before). In this past year I built The Wire headphone buffer with R2R attenuator / amplifier. DAC I am using now is ESS9023 from hifimediy but back then when I was using HD555 I was still on motherboard audio.
 
So here is the thing sound wise HD555 were really good for what I paid for them (50EUR I think). They were comfortable but I could just feel those bulges where hinges come inside the ear-cup so for new headphones I would prefer to have bigger ear-cups or at least same size but without any bulges inside. Clamping force for new pair must be same or less than HD555 since I am wearing glasses and it would probably start to hurt after a while if it was any higher.
 
Headphones will be used to listen to music and maybe some gaming (but in reality I have not started any games in 3 months now). My music preference is between Rock (older rock like ZZ top and the likes), alternative rock (Black Keys, Muse, ...), Indie (I hate that term but anyway stuff like The Decemebrists, Modest Mouse, Arcade Fire, Belle and Sebastian,...), Ska (The Slackers, Hepcat, ...) and Electronic (Royksopp, Parov Stelar, Kraftwerk,...).
 
I will be buying them from Amazon.de (only amazon and not some other stores that are selling over amazon). I am not that fussy about the price but lets say maximum is 450EUR.
 
Ok here are some headphones I was readying impressions and reviews about. I will also write my concerns and comments that I hope I got them right
 
- Sennheiser HD700 (430EUR): Comfortable. Really polarizing reviews, some say tube amp is a must with them to roll off some of the high end.
- Sennheiser HD600 (300EUR): Higher clamping force, pretty neutral sounding, good all around headphones
- Sennheiser HD650 (320EUR): Higher clamping force, bit more bass compared to HD600 and better soundstage otherwise pretty similar.
- Sennheiser HD598 (160EUR): Same size and construction as HD555 so it has those bulges inside ear-cups, That fake leather headband is also a concern. Neutral sounding , very wide soundstage.
- AKG K712 (360EUR): I don't know about that headband it looks really uncomfortable, otherwise really well balanced headphones. Don' know about clamping force.
- AKG K702 (220EUR): Same concern about headband. Bit less bass than K712 not that I mind that much about bass considering I used to have HD555.
- Beyerdynamic DT-880 (205-215EUR): Another well rounded headphones from what I read. No idea about that headband and clamping force.
- Phillips Fidelio X2 (320EUR): Bit more bass emphasis. There was a note by some that ear-pads were itchy. 
 
As you can see from the list I was looking for open over ear headphones. If you think I got something wrong please feel free to correct me. If you think I should consider some other pair feel free to say it so too.
 
Now which headphones would you suggest to me considering my messy thoughts.

 

[Me x3]

Beyerdynamic DT880 is a great headphone, if your amp is capable of 4 Vrms or so into 600Ohm load, then pick the 600 Ohm version, otherwise pick the 250 Ohm version. There's two main versions, Pro and Premium.
DT880 Pro is 250 Ohm and clamps a bit harder than Premium (but still less than stock HD600) and comes with a coiled cable. 
DT880 Premium is very similar, but straight cable and even less clamping force (250 Ohm or 600 Ohm - skip the 32 Ohm version)
 
DT880 is a very balanced headphone across the board, with fast, detailed and airy treble.
It's not that far from HD800 in terms of overall balance.
 
K702 is a great headphone as well, but not as good as an all rounder. 
Just a tad less bass than DT880, although it's really precise and layered. 
All in all, it's a drier, more analytical headphone with expansive soundstage. It's great for masterful recordings, but lacks some musicality with the typical recording. 
 
K712 could be a good compromise, as it is the DT880. 
Beyerdynamic treble is typically faster and airier, while AKGs are normally more mid-centric.
There's not much clamping force with AKGs, clearly less than HD600.
Some people like the headband, some people don't. Comfort is a very personal thing, you know...
 
If you like ultra-detailed (often bright) treble, forget everything and pick the T90.
 
It's often hard to make a decision, but the truth despite all the analysis is that these are all very good (and really enjoyable) headphones.
 
There's always a bit of a trade off between different headphones, sure, but each one has its strong points. Some recordings will shine trough Beyers and some will shine through AKGs or Senns, you know, that's part of the trade off.
There's no perfect headphone for all recordings. 
 
Is up to you to pick a headphone and play those recordings that really shine.
 
Best Luck!

 

[KG Jag]

All of these are good cans.
 
What's your preferred sound signature?  That answer will probably determine or at least significantly cut down your list.

 

[Beyakusenn]

^
+1
 
Would you consider buying second hand? Because for your budget I'd often recommend one of the Stax Basic systems like the SRS-2020.

 

[zoidbergslo]

Hey thanks for all the replays so far.
 
Me x3: I'll check out T90 as one of the possibilities. From quick look around it looks like is really bright headphone. I'll dig in deeper
 
KG Jag: I am looking for neutral sounding headphones  .
 
Beyakusenn: I would rather buy new than second hand.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoidbergslo /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

- Sennheiser HD600 (300EUR): Higher clamping force, pretty neutral sounding, good all around headphones

- Sennheiser HD650 (320EUR): Higher clamping force, bit more bass compared to HD600 and better soundstage otherwise pretty similar.

 

You have to bend the metal frame on these to get a better fit. Stretch out the headband, then bend the metal frame outwards at the middle and near the gimbals for the earcup. Hold it in a certain position bent the other way for a few seconds, release, check if the shape is different. Test fit as you go. The fit on my HD600 barely has more clamping force than the HD800, and unlike the stock shape, doesn't have any clamping force on the bottom of the earpad as it's less rounded.

 

Note that after this bending process it won't fit in the box (when I go to meets I just bend it back to fit then bend it again at the venue; or now, I just use a huge padded camera bag for it and the amp). 

 

[Rhamnetin]

Since you want a neutral sound, I recommend the Beyerdynamic DT 880.  The AKG K712 Pro is another one that you should like.  Me x3 gave a run down of both.

 

[KG Jag]

  Hey thanks for all the replays so far.
 
...
 
KG Jag: I am looking for neutral sounding headphones  .
 
...

 
I was hoping to hear more than just one factor.  Did not hear about things like sound stage, extension, speed, imaging, etc.  Nevertheless, take the HD 650 and X2 off your list.
 
The HD 600 and the K 712 are the closest to neutral.  However the other cans remaining on your list are not very far off the mark.

 

[Thenewguy007]

   
I was hoping to hear more than just one factor.  Did not hear about things like sound stage, extension, speed, imaging, etc.  Nevertheless, take the HD 650 and X2 off your list.
 
The HD 600 and the K 712 are the closest to neutral.  However the other cans remaining on your list are not very far off the mark.

Considering he only has the Sennheiser 555 as reference point, he might like the slight tilt in bass the 650 & X2 have.
 
 
Anyways, the HD598 would be the natural upgrade over your 555 in everyway.
 
The HD600 & K712 would be a bigger upgrade as well, BUT only with a good enough amp to power them.
 
I would go for the HD650/X2 personally, they pair with your music A LOT better than the former do.
 
With the X2 you won't need an amp like you would with the HD650.

 

[zoidbergslo]

Thank you all for replies.
 
Quote:

 

 

You have to bend the metal frame on these to get a better fit. Stretch out the headband, then bend the metal frame outwards at the middle and near the gimbals for the earcup. Hold it in a certain position bent the other way for a few seconds, release, check if the shape is different. Test fit as you go. The fit on my HD600 barely has more clamping force than the HD800, and unlike the stock shape, doesn't have any clamping force on the bottom of the earpad as it's less rounded.

 

Note that after this bending process it won't fit in the box (when I go to meets I just bend it back to fit then bend it again at the venue; or now, I just use a huge padded camera bag for it and the amp). 

 
Ok nice to know it can be reshaped
 

  Since you want a neutral sound, I recommend the Beyerdynamic DT 880.  The AKG K712 Pro is another one that you should like.  Me x3 gave a run down of both.

 
Ok so this is another +1 for DT-880 and K712
 

   
I was hoping to hear more than just one factor.  Did not hear about things like sound stage, extension, speed, imaging, etc.  Nevertheless, take the HD 650 and X2 off your list.
 
The HD 600 and the K 712 are the closest to neutral.  However the other cans remaining on your list are not very far off the mark.

 
For someone that uses these terms daily its easy to describe exactly what he he want. But I am not audiophile.
When I started searching for new headphones I just wanted comfortable pair that I can wear for hours without my ears getting hot and my head hurting.
 
OK so thinking about those terms as someone that does not know what he is talking about. I would have guessed its better to have bit faster headphones for rock type music. Sound stage and imaging is more important for classical or jazz. I have no idea about extension.
 

 
Considering he only has the Sennheiser 555 as reference point, he might like the slight tilt in bass the 650 & X2 have.
 
 
Anyways, the HD598 would be the natural upgrade over your 555 in everyway.
 
The HD600 & K712 would be a bigger upgrade as well, BUT only with a good enough amp to power them.
 
I would go for the HD650/X2 personally, they pair with your music A LOT better than the former do.
 
With the X2 you won't need an amp like you would with the HD650.

 
Well think of my amp as non portable version of Fiio E12 (same output buffers). So amping is OK but not perfect. I rad a lot about HD650 scales really well with good amp but I have no intention of changing mine in near future.

 

[KG Jag]

  Thank you all for replies.
 
Quote:

 

...

   

  Since you want a neutral sound, I recommend the Beyerdynamic DT 880.  The AKG K712 Pro is another one that you should like.  Me x3 gave a run down of both.

 
Ok so this is another +1 for DT-880 and K712
 

   
I was hoping to hear more than just one factor.  Did not hear about things like sound stage, extension, speed, imaging, etc.  Nevertheless, take the HD 650 and X2 off your list.
 
The HD 600 and the K 712 are the closest to neutral.  However the other cans remaining on your list are not very far off the mark.

 
For someone that uses these terms daily its easy to describe exactly what he he want. But I am not audiophile.
When I started searching for new headphones I just wanted comfortable pair that I can wear for hours without my ears getting hot and my head hurting.
 
OK so thinking about those terms as someone that does not know what he is talking about. I would have guessed its better to have bit faster headphones for rock type music. Sound stage and imaging is more important for classical or jazz. I have no idea about extension.
 

Originally Posted by Thenewguy007 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
...
 

 
 
These same factors also apply to speakers.
 
The K712 or (brighter) DT 880 are probably your best bets.

 

[414353]

I was in a similar situation not weeks ago, only I start with a Senn HD518.
I would suggest to the OP, if your looking for an all around set of headphones the suggestions of the AKG 712 and Beyer DT880 are good.
To the OP: What I did (along with talking to folks in the know) was compare frequency graphs. Frequency graphs are the most important as they are your baseline as to whether the headphones in question are bright or dark or balanced. There is no measurement for sound stage, so you have to go pretty much by reputation and recommendation on that.
With headphones it's really what flavor do you want, which makes it hard these days since one can no longer demo headphones for the most part.
I too was looking for an all around headphone that offers a little wider sound stage than my 518s and has a balanced sound (not too bright and not too dark), that brings out detail and good separation. I listen to all kinds of genres except rap, opera and today's pop and country. I looked at a comparison between the AKG K712 and the Beyer DT880 (600ohm) and they are similar. There is a good 3dB difference between the two in the bass and lower mid range areas with the K712 being the higher. Beyers tend to be bright sounding headphones and can be sibilant at times depending on the recording. If you prefer a bit brighter sound the Beyer DT880 (600ohm) is a great choice.
What I also did was use the Sennheiser HD800 as a baseline since it is considered the cream of the crop right now, in the graphs and then compare the cans I could better afford and see which came closest to the HD800s
Personally, I went with the AKG K712, Not an amount of money I was looking to spend. I consider them investment level headphones and I don't use headphones much. However, currently I am finding the need for them a bit more often than I like. So I am saving up for the K712s. Also look at it this way, why not spend the money now and get your destination cans instead of spending a lot more on lateral moves and trial and error.
 
It's also important to note what your using to drive the headphones. You may have a difficult time driving the K712 for example from a phone or portable player. You could get away with it if plugging into a PC or receiver or such, but for them to really shine you need an amp. The same with the Beyer DT880, especially at 600Ohm, you have to amp those.

 

[zoidbergslo]

   
 
These same factors also apply to speakers.
 
The K712 or (brighter) DT 880 are probably your best bets.

 
Hey thanks for recommendation. As for speakers I use some old Jamo speakers nothing really fancy. I don't have any measurements but are good enough for me.
 

  I was in a similar situation not weeks ago, only I start with a Senn HD518.
I would suggest to the OP, if your looking for an all around set of headphones the suggestions of the AKG 712 and Beyer DT880 are good.
To the OP: What I did (along with talking to folks in the know) was compare frequency graphs. Frequency graphs are the most important as they are your baseline as to whether the headphones in question are bright or dark or balanced. There is no measurement for sound stage, so you have to go pretty much by reputation and recommendation on that.
With headphones it's really what flavor do you want, which makes it hard these days since one can no longer demo headphones for the most part.
I too was looking for an all around headphone that offers a little wider sound stage than my 518s and has a balanced sound (not too bright and not too dark), that brings out detail and good separation. I listen to all kinds of genres except rap, opera and today's pop and country. I looked at a comparison between the AKG K712 and the Beyer DT880 (600ohm) and they are similar. There is a good 3dB difference between the two in the bass and lower mid range areas with the K712 being the higher. Beyers tend to be bright sounding headphones and can be sibilant at times depending on the recording. If you prefer a bit brighter sound the Beyer DT880 (600ohm) is a great choice.
What I also did was use the Sennheiser HD800 as a baseline since it is considered the cream of the crop right now, in the graphs and then compare the cans I could better afford and see which came closest to the HD800s
Personally, I went with the AKG K712, Not an amount of money I was looking to spend. I consider them investment level headphones and I don't use headphones much. However, currently I am finding the need for them a bit more often than I like. So I am saving up for the K712s. Also look at it this way, why not spend the money now and get your destination cans instead of spending a lot more on lateral moves and trial and error.
 
It's also important to note what your using to drive the headphones. You may have a difficult time driving the K712 for example from a phone or portable player. You could get away with it if plugging into a PC or receiver or such, but for them to really shine you need an amp. The same with the Beyer DT880, especially at 600Ohm, you have to amp those.

 
Thanks for your point of view. I did go look at the graphs over at headroom. =563&graphID[]=4163&graphID[]=2751&scale=30]HD555 vs K712 Pro vs DT-880. Form graph both have more bass that what I used to have on HD555. Also 3-10kHz is higher on both of those. But considering graph tries to tie data at 1kHz is this really the right representation. You could say both of those have less midrange and so on. I am really bad at this.
 
Just for the fun of it I now compared all of the headphones on the list to HD555.
=563&graphID[]=3801&scale=30]vs HD700, =563&graphID[]=573&scale=30]vs HD600, =563&graphID[]=853&scale=30]vs HD650, =563&graphID[]=2851&scale=30]vs HD598, =563&graphID[]=4163&scale=30]vs K712, =563&graphID[]=2621&scale=30]vs K702, =563&graphID[]=2751&scale=30]vs DT-880, =563&graphID[]=4143&scale=30]vs T90
Looks like most of those headphones have higher treble and some of them bit more bass and midrange. I cant really interpret these results. As most of you say K712 Pro or DT-880 would be nice upgrade but so would any other headphone on the list .  
 
How long will that AKG auto headband adjustment last?

 

[414353]

   
Hey thanks for recommendation. As for speakers I use some old Jamo speakers nothing really fancy. I don't have any measurements but are good enough for me.
 
 
Thanks for your point of view. I did go look at the graphs over at headroom. HD555 vs K712 Pro vs DT-880. Form graph both have more bass that what I used to have on HD555. Also 3-10kHz is higher on both of those. But considering graph tries to tie data at 1kHz is this really the right representation. You could say both of those have less midrange and so on. I am really bad at this.
 
Just for the fun of it I now compared all of the headphones on the list to HD555.
vs HD700, vs HD600, vs HD650, vs HD598, vs K712, vs K702, vs DT-880, vs T90
Looks like most of those headphones have higher treble and some of them bit more bass and midrange. I cant really interpret these results. As most of you say K712 Pro or DT-880 would be nice upgrade but so would any other headphone on the list .  
 
How long will that AKG auto headband adjustment last?

What you also want to do instead of looking at the sections of bass, mid and high separately is instead look at the overall balance across the spectrum. For instance if you see the highs peaking higher than the bass, that would indicate a bright sounding headphones where the bass would sound diminished by comparison. Also look at where things fall off and how much and whether or not they recover and by how much. You'll want to do these comparisons against a known reference level headphone such as the Senn HD800 and see which headphone comes closest to following the same stats.

 

[zoidbergslo]

OK I ordered AKG K712 Pro today. I hope it will be great buy for me. I'll report back here with my initial impressions. Cheers to all who helped.