[JWahl]

Finally I don't see what is so uncivilized about me suggesting that you man up and send a unit to Amir. RME did and got stellar review. Shiit did and got called out on some off the publicised stats/specs that turned out to be bad upon real testing. They were mature about it. Instead of pretending that it never happened, they revised on the next product and fixed it.

PS. My Beyers final arrived today so I am excited to go home to listen to my IFI Sig after all the waiting

The "uncivilized" part refers to where you insinuated they are "afraid" to send a review unit to ASR, and then double down with the "man up" as if he's not a man unless he send them a review loaner? They likely don't consider the "Measurements first, listening second or optional" crowd to be their target demographic. They're not a lab-equipment manufacturer. I imagine the only reason Schiit finally caved is that they (Jason and Mike) probably got tired of having their professional credibility slandered because they chose not to prioritize infinitesimally small noise and distortion measurements that are of dubious perceptual benefit. The Heresy was just to prove a point that yes, they can in fact throw together some op amps and make an instrumentation amplifier disguised as headphone amplifier. That and Schiit operates on tight margins so they can't necessarily afford to shut out demographics that might otherwise buy their product. I'm guessing that iFi is doing well enough on margins that they don't feel the need to appease the ASR crowd who, like I said, isn't really their target demographic anyways.

Although this sounds a little snarky, I'm not trying to insult objectivists in general; i'm in my senior year of an electrical engineering degree, myself. I'm actually grateful to the people over there who put in the time to measure equipment as it can provide useful insight, if done correctly. I just think the attitudes and philosophies can be a bit toxic at times. Measurements are a useful design tool, but are only relevant in the context of the specific design goal that the measurement applies to. In that context, they're not even really meant to be used by product end users, because the users typically have no context of what design constraint a measurement was used for, if at all. Nobody out in the real world is measuring the RF power density of an iPhone at 10 meters, they're judging if they get dropped calls and subjectively intelligible speech quality.

If one of an engineer's design constraints was to achieve a 0.3% THD on an amplifier, this was measured to be achieved, and then random internet personalities measure it and complain that it's not 0.1% and therefore that engineer failed, you can see where frustration would arise. If a company's target demographic consistently demands 0.1% amplifiers and they don't set their design constraint as such, then yes, that is a design failure. Likewise, if most of your target demographic demands subjectively pleasing listening experiences and not a specific performance metric, then prioritizing infinitesimally small noise and distortion measurements as a design constraint is also a failure of engineering design.

Granted, iFi's marketing can be a little bombastic and over the top sometimes, but I have a deep respect for Thorsten as a designer well before iFi existed, and trust the work he puts into his designs.

 

[pompecukor]

The "uncivilized" part refers to where you insinuated they are "afraid" to send a review unit to ASR, and then double down with the "man up" as if he's not a man unless he send them a review loaner? They likely don't consider the "Measurements first, listening second or optional" crowd to be their target demographic. They're not a lab-equipment manufacturer. I imagine the only reason Schiit finally caved is that they (Jason and Mike) probably got tired of having their professional credibility slandered because they chose not to prioritize infinitesimally small noise and distortion measurements that are of dubious perceptual benefit. The Heresy was just to prove a point that yes, they can in fact throw together some op amps and make an instrumentation amplifier disguised as headphone amplifier. That and Schiit operates on tight margins so they can't necessarily afford to shut out demographics that might otherwise buy their product. I'm guessing that iFi is doing well enough on margins that they don't feel the need to appease the ASR crowd who, like I said, isn't really their target demographic anyways.

Although this sounds a little snarky, I'm not trying to insult objectivists in general; i'm in my senior year of an electrical engineering degree, myself. I'm actually grateful to the people over there who put in the time to measure equipment as it can provide useful insight, if done correctly. I just think the attitudes and philosophies can be a bit toxic at times. Measurements are a useful design tool, but are only relevant in the context of the specific design goal that the measurement applies to. In that context, they're not even really meant to be used by product end users, because the users typically have no context of what design constraint a measurement was used for, if at all. Nobody out in the real world is measuring the RF power density of an iPhone at 10 meters, they're judging if they get dropped calls and subjectively intelligible speech quality.

If one of an engineer's design constraints was to achieve a 0.3% THD on an amplifier, this was measured to be achieved, and then random internet personalities measure it and complain that it's not 0.1% and therefore that engineer failed, you can see where frustration would arise. If a company's target demographic consistently demands 0.1% amplifiers and they don't set their design constraint as such, then yes, that is a design failure. Likewise, if most of your target demographic demands subjectively pleasing listening experiences and not a specific performance metric, then prioritizing infinitesimally small noise and distortion measurements as a design constraint is also a failure of engineering design.

Granted, iFi's marketing can be a little bombastic and over the top sometimes, but I have a deep respect for Thorsten as a designer well before iFi existed, and trust the work he puts into his designs.

I frankly enjoyed that. Thank you. A lot of what you say makes sense to me.

Only part that I don't 100% agree with is the part about target audience. I consider myself an "objectivist" as you put it. Also I am from an engineering background like you. We manufacture long range surveillance drone in the EU, so even though I am no expert in sound, but things like noise, conductors, analog/digital signals and RF are very much in our area of expertise.

I also think ASR reviews are a breath of fresh air and would not consider calling Amir a (random guy on the internet). Not sure if that qualifies me as an "ASR guy".

That being said I am a perfect target for IFI. I just spent 600 Eurs with them. I think there are many people like me in this respect in the world. Who can enjoy an equipment without being blinded by the marketing hype and like to call out manufactures when the said things that make it seem as if they think their buyers are morons. This of course in an extreme example. You called it bombastic marketing.
If ASR gave the Sig bad review I would not sell it. It satisfies my needs. I feel some people here are too much of the attitude if you are not with me you are against. That is just nonsense.

Anyway I like to learn about these things. I did not register on "Head-fi" to agrevate myself about how big God's zoo really is. I did cause I like to have a balanced perspective. I know there are many people like you here who can have a mature conversation.

Kudos

 

[JWahl]

I frankly enjoyed that. Thank you. A lot of what you say makes sense to me.

...

I know there are many people like you here who can have a mature conversation.

Kudos

Thanks for recognizing that I wasn't trying to be confrontational either. Like you mentioned, I think trying to gain a balanced perspective is most important as well. Constructive criticism can be helpful feedback for product improvement, and I'm a big proponent of providing it when it is warranted. I've openly criticized the price-point of the Pro iDSD for instance, because I think it shuts out a lot of potential market-share and sales. I'm guessing the Neo iDSD is the response for those like myself who are somewhat more value-critical.

There are those here, sometimes, who just like to "stir the pot" and it can be difficult to tell when someone is just being antagonistic as opposed to constructively critical.

 

[Cotnijoe]

Thought I'd chime in here real quick regarding who we pick for tours and how we do it, since I'm one of the main guys involved with that. Just to keep things transparent and real. So here are the main things we consider when picking out tour participants:

1) Is the product right for the person? We always ask all our reviewers what gear they listen to, whether that's tour-goers or our regular reviewers. I'm not gunna send a Hip-DAC to someone that only uses a Susvara. Can't imagine why that might be... =P

2) Is this some sketchy dude on the internet? Hey, I'm sure 99% of HFers are trustworthy people, and I'm sure 99% of HFers who made an account yesterday to sign up for our tour are trustworthy people as well, but sometimes we gotta scratch our heads a little bit and wonder if it's worth the risk of sending a unit to said individual. It's only natural. If it's an entry level unit, you know what lets go for it. Pro iDSD, well... we'll think a bit harder on that one.

3) Location location location. I try REALLY hard to be as inclusive as possible. I know the majority of HFers are US or EU based, so those tours are easy to set up. But I also try to make it so that the little guys can get a shot too. Unfortunately, sometimes it just doesn't make sense for us to send a unit to someone with the hassle of shipping just for the tour. Now if there happens to be a few people all in that region, we try to accommodate. We've even asked some of these HFers to invite their friends so that they can get enough people to warrant a tour there!

4) Number of people signing up. Again, I really try to be as inclusive as possible. But sometimes when there are 40 people all in the US signing up for the tour, something's gotta give. Similarly, like I alluded to before, if one person signs up for the tour in Barrow, Alaska, I mean... sorry dude but that's just not gunna happen.

So then what are some things we don't strongly consider when it comes to tours?

1) Reviewing experience. We have great relationships with the many many reviewers we work with. If we only wanted those with experience to try out products, we wouldn't be wasting our time with the tour. This is the chance for us to interact with the community and make some new friends along the way.

2) Negative reviews. Surprise surprise. But yea it's true. I've accepted plenty of people that gave us less-than-glowing reviews to participate in our tours again. And sometimes they gave us a fairly negative review again. Kinda sucks, but oh well - not their fault. We have enough people on tour that some negative reviewer here and there's fine. And if everyone's review's negative, well then maybe we gotta look at what went wrong on our end right? Can't always blame others all the time =P.

Regarding the tour as a marketing thing, well I mean of course it is to some extent. But lets be real, we have plenty of reviewers and partners that we work with for actual marketing. You can bet the more established publications draw WAY more viewership than all of the tour reviews combined. Again, this is a chance for people to have some fun and try some new stuff. As someone who enjoyed writing some reviews in the past, tour were a lot of fun for me and I was always first in line to sign up. I know there are plenty of people that share my sentiment =)

However, there's a difference between people giving negative reviews and just being a douchebag. And yes, I do block people from our tours because the person unfortunately just sucks a bit. It's never been a significant issue. Despite the different faces, preferences, and approaches to audio that exist in our community, I've found that most people are pretty reasonable when you just sit down, take a bit of time, and just talk with them.

And yea, honestly that's basically my entire thought process. Not a whole lot to it is there? I'm just a guy trying to keep life simple. Ain't nobody got time for none of them drama and such. We always encourage those that we weren't able to offer a tour spot to to try again for our next tour. Just because we couldn't accommodate you this time around doesn't mean you're not welcomed to join us in the future!

 

[iFi audio]

Will be getting the Neo IDSD tomorrow, will post impressions later this month

Please do, thanks

 

[pompecukor]

Thought I'd chime in here real quick regarding who we pick for tours and how we do it, since I'm one of the main guys involved with that. Just to keep things transparent and real. So here are the main things we consider when picking out tour participants:

1) Is the product right for the person? We always ask all our reviewers what gear they listen to, whether that's tour-goers or our regular reviewers. I'm not gunna send a Hip-DAC to someone that only uses a Susvara. Can't imagine why that might be... =P

2) Is this some sketchy dude on the internet? Hey, I'm sure 99% of HFers are trustworthy people, and I'm sure 99% of HFers who made an account yesterday to sign up for our tour are trustworthy people as well, but sometimes we gotta scratch our heads a little bit and wonder if it's worth the risk of sending a unit to said individual. It's only natural. If it's an entry level unit, you know what lets go for it. Pro iDSD, well... we'll think a bit harder on that one.

3) Location location location. I try REALLY hard to be as inclusive as possible. I know the majority of HFers are US or EU based, so those tours are easy to set up. But I also try to make it so that the little guys can get a shot too. Unfortunately, sometimes it just doesn't make sense for us to send a unit to someone with the hassle of shipping just for the tour. Now if there happens to be a few people all in that region, we try to accommodate. We've even asked some of these HFers to invite their friends so that they can get enough people to warrant a tour there!

4) Number of people signing up. Again, I really try to be as inclusive as possible. But sometimes when there are 40 people all in the US signing up for the tour, something's gotta give. Similarly, like I alluded to before, if one person signs up for the tour in Barrow, Alaska, I mean... sorry dude but that's just not gunna happen.

So then what are some things we don't strongly consider when it comes to tours?

1) Reviewing experience. We have great relationships with the many many reviewers we work with. If we only wanted those with experience to try out products, we wouldn't be wasting our time with the tour. This is the chance for us to interact with the community and make some new friends along the way.

2) Negative reviews. Surprise surprise. But yea it's true. I've accepted plenty of people that gave us less-than-glowing reviews to participate in our tours again. And sometimes they gave us a fairly negative review again. Kinda sucks, but oh well - not their fault. We have enough people on tour that some negative reviewer here and there's fine. And if everyone's review's negative, well then maybe we gotta look at what went wrong on our end right? Can't always blame others all the time =P.

Regarding the tour as a marketing thing, well I mean of course it is to some extent. But lets be real, we have plenty of reviewers and partners that we work with for actual marketing. You can bet the more established publications draw WAY more viewership than all of the tour reviews combined. Again, this is a chance for people to have some fun and try some new stuff. As someone who enjoyed writing some reviews in the past, tour were a lot of fun for me and I was always first in line to sign up. I know there are plenty of people that share my sentiment =)

However, there's a difference between people giving negative reviews and just being a douchebag. And yes, I do block people from our tours because the person unfortunately just sucks a bit. It's never been a significant issue. Despite the different faces, preferences, and approaches to audio that exist in our community, I've found that most people are pretty reasonable when you just sit down, take a bit of time, and just talk with them.

And yea, honestly that's basically my entire thought process. Not a whole lot to it is there? I'm just a guy trying to keep life simple. Ain't nobody got time for none of them drama and such. We always encourage those that we weren't able to offer a tour spot to to try again for our next tour. Just because we couldn't accommodate you this time around doesn't mean you're not welcomed to join us in the future!

Hey thank you for taking your time and writing this down. I appreciate and (surprise) even believe it. Quite logical thought process, not something one would make up.

 

[Paperinoil]

This might be the product I've been waiting for as a desktop DAC/amp for my Audeze LCD-1 and HFM HE-400i's, along with the XLR pre out for my Tannoy Gold 5 monitors. It has the exact feature set I need and if my first taste of iFi products (with my now sadly sold Hip Dac) is anything to go by, I'm certainly a fan of theirs. I miss that thing. Might be a huge long shot, but I did sign up for the tour. Fingers crossed!

One thing I've noticed is that many pics I've seen the OLED screen seems to be scratched up? Is this common on new units or are these demo units I'm seeing?

 

[BattousaiX26]

Great to hear.

Also, i see you've got the HE1000 - the soundstage with the NEO could be simply spectacular, let us know

Dude I have to agree with you! Sound coming from all over directions of he1000 and each instrument, vocal etc seems to have their own space and not cluttered so I can easily hear details! I will spend more time before I gave more impression but first two adjective that comes to mind is very musical and large soundstage

 

[BattousaiX26]

Please do, thanks

Got mine a while ago with the ipower x, will need more time before I post my full impression

 

[Cotnijoe]

This might be the product I've been waiting for as a desktop DAC/amp for my Audeze LCD-1 and HFM HE-400i's, along with the XLR pre out for my Tannoy Gold 5 monitors. It has the exact feature set I need and if my first taste of iFi products (with my now sadly sold Hip Dac) is anything to go by, I'm certainly a fan of theirs. I miss that thing. Might be a huge long shot, but I did sign up for the tour. Fingers crossed!

One thing I've noticed is that many pics I've seen the OLED screen seems to be scratched up? Is this common on new units or are these demo units I'm seeing?

There's a soft plastic screen protector on the units that a lot of people don't notice and don't take off. Thats whats getting scratched haha.

 

[BattousaiX26]

Guys quick impression with NEO IDSD using he1000 terminated in 4.4 balance cable with zen can as amp vs using its built in amp:

* built in amp - overall presentation is smooth, treble lacks just a bit of detail and air, bass is a little bit soft and rounded in presentation, sound stage is average to a little bit wide.
* zen can as amp - adding the zen can just makes things clearer, more air, more dynamics and bass more punchy and deeper. Sound stage becomes massive! Sound coming from all direction and instruments and vocalist seem to have a huge empty space beside each other! Detail pinpoint is much easier now even without listening critically!

I think that where the Neo IDSD will truly shine is if you used it as dedicated DAC rather than DAC/AMP

 

[Sebastien Chiu]

Guys quick impression with NEO IDSD using he1000 terminated in 4.4 balance cable with zen can as amp vs using its built in amp:

* built in amp - overall presentation is smooth, treble lacks just a bit of detail and air, bass is a little bit soft and rounded in presentation, sound stage is average to a little bit wide.
* zen can as amp - adding the zen can just makes things clearer, more air, more dynamics and bass more punchy and deeper. Sound stage becomes massive! Sound coming from all direction and instruments and vocalist seem to have a huge empty space beside each other! Detail pinpoint is much easier now even without listening critically!

I think that where the Neo IDSD will truly shine is if you used it as dedicated DAC rather than DAC/AMP

Out of curiosity, how did you stack you stack your NEO and ZEN CAN? I would love to see a few pics of your set up for my own.

 

[BattousaiX26]

Out of curiosity, how did you stack you stack your NEO and ZEN CAN? I would love to see a few pics of your set up for my own.

I did not stack them while using them actually because I have very small table. I just put my Neo Idsd on top of my speaker and the zen can beside my headphone.
For the sake of picture I just put the zen can on top of Neo IDSD. Sorry for the bad image quality.

 

[BattousaiX26]

Guys the amp section isn't really that bad, I tried using the Neo IDSD at headphone store driving aeon flow closed, hd800s, abyss dianna and heddphone and its actually ok. However if you use a dedicated amplifier like the zen can, the neo idsd just transform into a whole new beast.

 

[pompecukor]

I think that where the Neo IDSD will truly shine is if you used it as dedicated DAC rather than DAC/AMP

Based on what I have been reading, I am getting the same impression over all. But in this case, won't you see it as on the expensive side, if used soley as a DAC? I mean you can get many fully balanced (not S-balanced like this) well reviewed MQA DACs for less. Or you can get other combos for the cost of NEO + ZEN CAN.