[daytrader]

Can the Zen Blue Dac in its current hardware form ever be software updated to a higher fidelity spec-wise? If so, what are your plans?

 

[LostnAmerica]

Can the Zen Blue Dac in its current hardware form ever be software updated to a higher fidelity spec-wise? If so, what are your plans?

I currently am unable to download the latest firmware because I don’t have an Android device...here is a screenshot of the info.and the web link that explains it all.
Best
https://ifi-audio.com/downloads/

 

[MLGrado]

"He will avoid questions on specific launch dates, products at the drawing board stage etc"

It never specificied that we cannot ask as to why a certain product doesn't exist. We simply cannot ask about their products in the drawing board.

Come on, somebody ask why hasn't iFI created their own R2R portable DAC amp?

Oh wait-

That's actually not a bad idea. They could use Audio-GD's r2r discrete modules.

Essentially the BB DSD1793 behaves like a R2R DAC. Certainly the measurements will look very similar. Have a look at your fav. legit review with measurements, meaning something like Audio Precision measuring equipment... the amateur using stuff bought from Guitar Center or similar doesn't count. You will see the same roll off at high frequencies, and the same imaging with telltale comb filter pattern at multiples of the sample rate.

The DSD1793 in all iFi products, save the original iDAC, is bit perfect when that mode is selected, in the most significant 6 bits. The manner of conversion is different than a pure R2R DAC in that instead of using resistors/switches of varying output and seemingly inevitable linearity issues caused by the tech itself, the DSD 1793 will convert to thermometer code, so there are a full 64 switches, which means you can use dynamic element matching just like in a Delta Sigma DAC. Which means the DSD 1793 and other BB products like it should have superior linearity vs the older R2R technology.

Speaking of Delta Sigma, the remaining 18 bits (or 10 if you are using 16/44.1 or similar) are converted by via Delta Sigma, which means the inherent weakness at 0 crossing in PCM is avoided. This Delta Sigma 'part' of the signal is also converted via the equal weighted switches and is part of the Dynamic element matching mentioned above. Both signals are combined at the output stage.

And so goes the Burr Brown 'segment DAC', which was thought by its makers to be a breakthrough advancement over pure R2R Dacs or pure DS Dacs. It aims to give you the best of both worlds, working around inherent weaknesses.

So one may indeed consider going to R2R a step backward. In any case, you would not have iFi's TRUE DSD conversion. R2R must convert DSD to PCM. The BB DSD1793 in iFi products 'repurposes' the segment DAC and its thermometer code switches as a 8 tap FIR 'moving average' filter for DSD. That's all you need. Single bit signal must only need filtering at the conversion stage. And that is supposed to be the 'beauty' and 'simplicity' of the format.


It really is a remarkable DAC and iFi has taken the Burr-Brown/TI product to new heights, and has done things with it never envisioned by the original makers. Which is what makes iFi incredible and unique products.

 

[iFi audio]

It really is a remarkable DAC and iFi has taken the Burr-Brown/TI product to new heights, and has done things with it never envisioned by the original makers. Which is what makes iFi incredible and unique products.

Exactly. You got it right. It's never about a DAC chip alone, but what one can do with it.

Many thanks for your post!

 

[Zeka]

Any news on DROP DAC?

 

[CANiSLAYu]

@iFi audio can you comment on this post from the CanJam NYC 2020 thread? Like what it was that was demo’d?

Even more exciting: There's another new amp they had there that's coming out in a few months they inform me. It was connected to the bluetooth streamer. It apparently puts out 4W of power. It has 4 gain settings including a +18db. It drove the Atticus and LCD4 with no problems and sounded very clean. Had the same general appearance as the Drop HX6XX amp pictured above.

 

[iFi audio]

Any news on DROP DAC?

Soon!

@iFi audio can you comment on this post from the CanJam NYC 2020 thread? Like what it was that was demo’d?

We have developed two products exclusively for DROP and one of them has a special thing to go nicely with DROP's HD 6XX. Once we can reveal more nfo, this forum will be the first one to know! Just a little bit longer!

 

[LostnAmerica]

this is for the iFi resident@iFi Audio: Are there plans to enable updates with the Zen Blue via the Mac OS? Or maybe a workaround as I don't have or plan to buy any Android products. Thank you in advance for your response.
Cheers!

 

[iFi audio]

Zen Blue via the Mac OS?

Do you mean updates of its BT receiver chip? If so, that depends upon when this chip's manufacturer is ready to release iOS package.

 

[LostnAmerica]

Do you mean updates of its BT receiver chip? If so, that depends upon when this chip's manufacturer is ready to release iOS package.

I believe so, see post #47 regarding the BT firmware update availability: only for android devices...I’ll just patiently wait for someone to “fix” this issue. Thank you for your quick response. I appreciate that.
Cheers

 

[iFi audio]

I’ll just patiently wait for someone to “fix” this issue.

Qualcomm's BT chip in ZEN Blue is their latest. Qualcomm doesn't yet have software for it to use in iOS. Once this company releases it, then ZEN Blue (and Aurora!) will have necessary FW update just as Android does. It's a matter of time, but it's up to Qualcomm.

 

[LostnAmerica]

Qualcomm's BT chip in ZEN Blue is their latest. Qualcomm doesn't yet have software for it to use in iOS. Once this company releases it, then ZEN Blue (and Aurora!) will have necessary FW update just as Android does. It's a matter of time, but it's up to Qualcomm.

Thank you, I am appreciative of the clarification. BTW, it still operates splendidly, so no worries there.
Best

 

[iFi audio]

Thank you, I am appreciative of the clarification. BTW, it still operates splendidly, so no worries there.
Best

Sure, anytime!

 

[revand]

As much as we see value in smartphones (everyone has one!) and we believe they are the future of streaming, iFi is still solely focused on audio products. Hence, we have no plans to make a smartphone. Crumbs, we won’t do a better phone than Apple, audiophile or not! We’re sticking to what we know. In addition, smartphones are moving towards wireless. As a manufacturer, we’re concentrating on keeping our products ahead of the game.




As much as we like R2R technology, (it is, in fact, embedded in digital products released in the past under the AMR brand), it doesn’t work equally well for everything. We design our products to be as future-proofed as possible, (MQA, DSD, DXD and so on), which is why we don’t use R2R tech in our gear.
Discrete R2R, especially without laser trimming, or other similar solutions do not perform all that well. The technology itself is trivial, without any challenges beyond the resistor matrix precision (0.0005% precision resistors are required to produce < ½ LSB error at 16-bit) and switches (ideally multiple BJTs on a single IC). Early DACs in CD players were made like that.

(photo courtesy: Texas Instruments)

Fully laser-trimmed integrated R2R DAC chips perform better. We still consider the Philips TDA1541 as unbeaten for a multibit (16-bit chip), precisely because it is not typical R2R tech. It runs on active current steering. This circuitry is too complex for discrete options and it needs many transistors kept at the same exact temperature. This is not really practical in discrete designs.

R2R DACs also have problems with low signal levels, which is what Delta Sigma DACs avoid. Conversely Delta Sigma (including DSD) technology performs relatively poorly at high signal levels in comparison to multibit solutions.

That’s why we prefer hybrids; multibit architecture for high signal levels, (the so-called upper bits of the MSBs), and high speed (DSD256 or higher) Delta Sigma topology for lower signal levels. The Burr-Brown DSD1793 we’ve been using so much is one such hybrid and one of the best options for us.




1. Although there are no plans to tweak the micro iDSD Black Label, its successor (if one where ever to be created!?!?) will be designed with all the feedback from you guys taken into account. We’re lucky to have you and your wealth of knowledge and ideas to draw from.

2. To better the analogue volume control currently inside our micro iDSD BL, would mean a fundamental circuit re-design.

3. Your comments have been noted and passed onto R&D! We introduce them as soon as we can, so stay tuned!

4. We like it a lot, but we don't know exactly which DAC chips we'll use in the future.


(photo courtesy: Texas Instruments)




Different products require different approaches and often also different ‘looks’. Broadly-speaking, we strive to design each product to be as appealing as it can be and we like styling diversity. Audio is funky and fun. Plus, we're no Apple. We're iFi




If and when it's ready

Jesting aside, any new products will take a different tack. They will be more dedicated to portable or desktop as can be seen with the hip-dac and ZEN series respectively. But watch out, for if and when a successor does come out, it would need to be one beast of a devil.




As we've explained in the past, it's not possible to have our Pro iDSD fully Roon Ready as we've already maxed out its internal CPU! This product wasn't designed to have Roon endpoint functionality as this would require hardware alterations. We've found a different way to ‘skin this cat’ in the form of the iFi Bridge, please see here:

Realistically, that's all we could do for our Pro iDSD without making changes inside it.

Nonetheless, we're aware of how important Roon is for consumers, which is why we take it into account in our developments.




Our xDSD was designed to be something else, our first portable product with wireless functionality. As such, it doesn't compete with the micro iDSD Black Label.




We like DAPs, but we like amps, DACs and their combinations even more




To fully address this question we'd have to reveal some of our plans, which is something we can't do until we're ready. However, we're aware of the importance of MQA and the need for some middle ground.






It’s true, we had thought about discontinuing it but customers keep asking for it, so we have made restarted production!




1. As a manufacturer, we've always been into providing our customers with as much choice as we can. Our top of the line headphone amp, the Pro iCAN was designed to be as versatile a platform as we could possibly make. That's the reason why it has so many things going on its front, rear and inside too! Also, many possible connections allow users to get by without adapters. Adapters are never a good thing.

2. Headphones that are connected to the Pro iCAN via a XLR plug can’t be detected. This is why the line outputs can’t be automatically turned off.

3. The Pro iCAN is a desktop product. A remote volume control was what was most in demand at the time. Adjusting the volume is probably the most common thing we do with our gear from the comfort of an armchair. Plus, adding all the other switches to the remote was pretty much a no-go really.

4. We've always used DAC chips that are most suitable for the job we need them to do. That's why the Sabre DAC was a better choice for our ZEN series.

ESS Sabre chips aren’t new to us, we used these in the original iDAC. There are some applications where the Burr-Brown DSD1793 (which we like so much!) does not function as well as it could. Where that’s the case, then we use the next best (subjectively) sounding chip available. The ZEN DAC uses the Burr-Brown DSD1793, yes. But the ESS Sabre chip inside the ZEN Blue has the advantage of eliminating jitter at the source. This is why in this application the ESS chip sounds better than a DSD1793. We needed a chip that could counteract the extremely high jitter (~10,000ps) clocks of the Bluetooth chipset.




I’m partial to German beer and Stoli. Oh and Moët et Chandon.




That's very unlikely, but who knows, perhaps one day we will. Never say never But at this juncture, we don’t see DAPs as growing in popularity which is why we are hesitant in investing resources in this direction.




1. Yes, sampling at a much lower rate cannot describe a transient waveform as well in the time domain. Please think about 24 frames per second versus 60/120/240Hz refresh rates. The frame number does not matter if a picture is steady, however with rapidly moving images? It does!



2. Upsampling cannot restore time or previously lost amplitude domain information. At best, if upsampling to infinity, no additional losses occur. In reality, any form of upsampling is lossy.

3. In the purely digital domain sense, without considering conversion to analogue, any sample rate conversion (upsampling) is lossy and thus best avoided. In a system comprised of a DAC, analogue stages, amplifiers and speakers, the end result from the whole system may subjectively favour the upsampled result in spite of objective losses.

It is a highly intriguing subject and one which needs more hard science applied to it before we can make anymore statements here.




1. If you intend to use the HiBy as a transport and the nano iDSD BL as a DAC/amp combo, then yes, that's how you connect the two.

2. The nano iDSD BL's 3.5mm headphone out is S-Balanced, which means that it'll accept regular (TRS) and balanced (TRRS) 3.5mm jacks.

3. The iEMatch output was designed to transparently provide more headroom for very sensitive loads, mainly iEMs. As such, it doesn't sound different.




We got multiple questions about these items and we're looking into this. Watch this space!




I stepped away from my daily duties as director to spend more time with my family and work on recording and sound reinforcement projects (returning to my Pro roots), which are interesting to me but less so for AMR/iFi.

As an active shareholder, I continue oversee the design and tuning at AMR/iFi along with others. And reply to the odd question.




The Raal Requisite SRA1 is a very unique product. We've heard it and we've enjoyed it thoroughly, however, at this point the item you mentioned is beyond our scope.




In a way it’s not really a question of money, but more about what improvements are desired. Our Pro iDSD shares many fundamentals with the micro iDSD (both the regular & BL versions). The former’s more substantial budget not only allowed for additional features, but also unlocked alternative approaches to analogue circuitry.



Could we make a portable Pro iDSD version at say 1800 USD and without tubes? In principle yes, we could. But would such an item make commercial sense? Now that remains to be seen. If it does…




1. The ZEN DAC is a MQA renderer.

2. Correct.

3. These are LED colors you should see. Magenta indicates MQA and yellow tells you that the GTO filter is engaged.

4. The ZEN DAC was launched with the GTO firmware already installed. Read more about the GTO filter here:

https://ifi-audio.com/downloads/

...and scroll down to the 'other iFi firmware' tab, thanks!

I tried my iFi ZEN DAC with the GTO filter installed (with 5.3c firmware update) and found much better than the factory made device with the Burr-Brown filter!
I explained my opinion on my Hungarian blog (Google Translate gives you an acceptable English version).
I also express my view about the new iFi iPower X power supply, and spread (sorry about using this word) my car experience with the new Fiio LA-UA1 USB power purifier.

 

[iFi audio]

I tried my iFi ZEN DAC with the GTO filter installed (with 5.3c firmware update) and found much better than the factory made device with the Burr-Brown filter!
I explained my opinion on my Hungarian blog (Google Translate gives you an acceptable English version).
I also express my view about the new iFi iPower X power supply, and spread (sorry about using this word) my car experience with the new Fiio LA-UA1 USB power purifier.

Thanks a ton! As for GTO, some folks don't like it. But those who do, they like it A LOT.

Personally, I got used to the GTO so much that it has to be engaged regardless of an iFi product used.