If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...
Jul 10, 2019 at 2:22 PM Post #13,726 of 19,243
In practice, those little peaks and troughs in the FR are different for all of us and that makes a perfect EQ compensation very difficult to achieve.
I think Yuriv posted measurement of an EQ'd iem, and you can see the response as jagged lines, not a smooth continuous contour. That reminds me to do some EQ result measurements. Curious how it results on my rig.

Why does it look jagged I wonder?

The issue is if I can get the insertion depth to match closely so that I can EQ accurately as the tips are different.
 
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Jul 10, 2019 at 2:35 PM Post #13,727 of 19,243
I think Yuriv posted measurement of an EQ'd iem, and you can see the response as jagged lines, not a smooth continuous contour.
Sonarworks True-Fi tries to make your ATH M50x sound like a Focal Utopia via custom EQ (it knows how to map various headphone FRs, but unfortunately, no Etys on the current list). I think your comment shows the difficulty of doing that accurately, but it's a fun thing to check out.
 
Jul 10, 2019 at 2:45 PM Post #13,728 of 19,243
Sonarworks True-Fi tries to make your ATH M50x sound like a Focal Utopia via custom EQ (it knows how to map various headphone FRs, but unfortunately, no Etys on the current list). I think your comment shows the difficulty of doing that accurately, but it's a fun thing to check out.
That is impossible. Like you said this is all for fun and games. No one should take this seriously.
 
Jul 10, 2019 at 3:05 PM Post #13,730 of 19,243
before going to war because somebody suggests that some DSP or even just competent EQ can make cheap stuff sound great, I would like to list a few ideas which are usually accepted as factual:

1/ it is very difficult to EQ accurately by ear. it's sort of a job actually.
I spent almost 2 entire years trying again and again with test tones and sweeps to gain experience, and be able to tell what frequency wasn't right and how much was the right compensation. it's long, hard, and even then the result will probably be in the +/-0.5dB in the midrange, it can still be up to several dB at both ends of our hearing. at least that's the case for me.

2/ if I put 2 IEMs in my microphone and make an EQ to compensate the difference, that would be the right compensation for my coupler and the way the IEMs went in it. which is almost certainly not how they would be in my ears. meaning some resonances wouldn't be where I measured them so the FR would not be the same. I actually try to address that when I do my own measurements, as EQing my stuff easily is 95% of why I even own a mic and a coupler. but in the end I still have to rely on a all lot of subjectivity and tuning by ear. so back to 1/

3/ most people with some serious experience in acoustic and listening tests will tend to agree that the frequency response is the dominant variable when it comes subjective impressions and preferences.
many audiophiles imagine that stuff like clarity, soundstage, or how "fast" the bass is, won't be related to FR and must have some other more important causes like transient whatever and distortions. and while those are some of the possible causes, they will come in play if and only if they happen to be very bad(like madly underdamped driver or above 1% THD). basically they make audible differences if they cause audible issues(thank you captain obvious!!!). so I'm not saying to forget everything and assume that a FR tells us everything, because of course that's super dumb. but there is really no reason to act surprised or revolted when someone proposes that another IEM with a similar signature might be just as pleasing and very similar all around. nobody claimed it would be identical in every way, so those who try to introduce that "all or nothing" battle are just building a strawman argument. don't fall for that.

4/ in practice nobody who knows what he's doing would attempt to strictly EQ the upper treble. as many people can perceive those, it means that most EQ settings are not in fact going to fully copy the FR of another IEM(or heaphone).

78/(I use the numbers I want!!!) if one IEM had a terrible roll off of some massive dip, trying to EQ that back up to try and mimic some other IEM could fail and result in massive distortions while still not even reaching the right FR.


so all in all, even for partial EQ, it might not be given to everybody to do a great EQ job for oneself. as @Joe Bloggs started before me, and kept going long after I felt satisfied and moved on to other stuff, I'm pretty confident that he can make some IEMs sound pretty good to his own ears with an EQ. those who visualize a dude turning 3 knobs and giving up, that's not Joe B at all. he's an actual mad man when it comes to DSPs and EQ in particular. ^_^
IMO, so long as distortions remain fairly low and phase doesn't imitate Tony Hawk in one of his games, chances are that the sound would come surprisingly close. but only if the FR we get to hear was actually the same. as to subjectively be fooled, that's an entirely different problem. sealed stuff and vented stuff don't feel the same, I'd just take a few steps or have a car pass by me and I'd know something is wrong. and of course with Ety, if I don't get brain probed by the IEM, I'm never going to believe I'm using an Ety! ^_^ so actually tricking someone into not knowing which IEM is which, that's a challenge way more difficult than just making a cheap IEM sound great or close to our own idea of neutral.
 
Jul 10, 2019 at 3:19 PM Post #13,731 of 19,243
castleofargh you made some excellent points there. Especially your first point.

Equalizing for two iems to sound the same is insanely hard and not really that accurate. Like trying to calibrate a tv by eye without having the correct test patterns, impossible.

When I calibrate my home theater for frequency response, I have a calibrated mic with roomeq wizard software in order to do it a accurately. I couldn't imagine someone doing it by ear and getting something even remotely accurate.
 
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Jul 10, 2019 at 4:04 PM Post #13,734 of 19,243
Sonarworks True-Fi tries to make your ATH M50x sound like a Focal Utopia via custom EQ (it knows how to map various headphone FRs, but unfortunately, no Etys on the current list). I think your comment shows the difficulty of doing that accurately, but it's a fun thing to check out.
I think those that think EQ can match such different transducers probably do not have experience into physics of transducers.

I'm no expert, but Beryllium material used for stiffness of the driver has to account for physical perameters too complex to EQ. Driver flex etc. There's multiple domains, that includes the physical when we take account of the resulting sound output. Not just software.

Is there anybody here has all the knowledge of various domains to tell us what is possible or not?
 
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Jul 10, 2019 at 5:39 PM Post #13,735 of 19,243
How do you match the volume? Do you mean you matched 100hz and the 100hz sound different in two iem? Yeah that's called distortion.
Yeah distortion and maybe decay. And they certainly sound different.
No, it's the phase difference I was referring to. The same tone will go through different phase delays going to the two drivers and end up going out to your ear at different phases. Hence you will never get the two to sound centred in your ear as a matched pair of IEMs would. This is not a problem when you put the IEMs on one pair after another however.
 
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Jul 10, 2019 at 6:04 PM Post #13,736 of 19,243
I think those that think EQ can match such different transducers probably do not have experience into physics of transducers.

I'm no expert, but Beryllium material used for stiffness of the driver has to account for physical perameters too complex to EQ. Driver flex etc. There's multiple domains, that includes the physical when we take account of the resulting sound output. Not just software.

Is there anybody here has all the knowledge of various domains to tell us what is possible or not?

Beryllium diaphragms would break up at a higher frequency than a same-sized regular driver. When it breaks up, its rippling effect on frequency response would be larger.

However I would wager that there are no IEM drivers with diaphragms so large and so unconductive of sound waves as to break up within the audible frequency range. After all, you have to figure in the fact that the largest IEM drivers out there are still smaller than almost any loudspeaker tweeter.

So... I doubt this is really an issue.

As far as I know, the factors that the IEM driver can affect are frequency response, distortion and radiation pattern. Distortion is not really audible in any IEM worth its salt, and radiation pattern is a non sequitur as the IEM will be fixed to your ear and not have a room to bounce sound waves around (unlike loudspeakers).

The IEM housing and tubing further affects frequency response in the guise of resonances. This also affects the phase response, but the size of the ear canal would not be big enough to allow non-minimum-phase resonances to occur at anything other than extremely high frequencies which we are either phase-insensitive to or can't hear at all. So the main challenge is in the form of jagged frequency (magnitude) response caused by the resonances, the further the IEM sits from the eardrum the more jagged it usually is. That's bad news for trying to make one earphone sound like another, but not necessarily bad news for overall sound quality: loudspeakers in a room have high frequency response so jagged thanks to room reflections that it looks more like a head of hair than any horizontal line:
hair.PNG

One reason fullsize headphones sound more spacious than IEMs may be that their FR starts to resemble loudspeakers in their jaggedness. And this can also be simulated in IEMs using DSP (in terms of just the jagged FR, or the whole nine yards including the delays in the reflected sounds.)
 
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Jul 11, 2019 at 7:38 AM Post #13,737 of 19,243
No, it's the phase difference I was referring to. The same tone will go through different phase delays going to the two drivers and end up going out to your ear at different phases. Hence you will never get the two to sound centred in your ear as a matched pair of IEMs would. This is not a problem when you put the IEMs on one pair after another however.

Sure I can do one pair after another. Mh1 still sound thicker, try it and what do you think/hear? are FR solely the cause?
 
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Jul 11, 2019 at 9:30 AM Post #13,739 of 19,243
This probably only applies to a very small subset of the headfier population but for those of you who have ER4SR/XR and ibasso IT04 AND like silicon multiflange eartips....I have found that the Spinfit CP240 fit the iBassos very well and using the 3mm insert work nicely with the ER4s.
 

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