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[i]Please Help Me![/i]: Waveform vs Envelope:

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by TheSonicTruth, Sep 26, 2018.
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  1. bfreedma
    That’s not what Bigshot said or inferred, but as usual, you’re so busy trying to be right you aren’t reading and thinking about what others post.

    Putting people who knowledgeably disagree with you on Ignore only highlights the fact that your only concern is being “right”, not actually understanding the concepts being discussed. I understand how the posters on the other forum you linked feel.
     
  2. TheSonicTruth
    Well instead of just saying "you're wrong", he could have said, "It's more like this.." Then laid out whatever of mine he felt needed correction or clarification. Both BigShot and Gregorio are the kings of "YOU'RE WRONG". Like they're detention monitors in high school or something.
     
  3. bfreedma
    Both of them, particularly Gregorio, have explained in excruciating detail why you are wrong in multiple threads. You ignore them and repeat the same incorrect statements and concepts. This is your issue, not anyone else’s.

    How many different internet sites does this have to happen on before you look in the mirror and accept you don’t know what you’re talking about and begin to listen rather than constantly bloviating?

    It can’t be everyone else all the time.
     
  4. bigshot
    Explained in post 2. You can't judge sound quality from a squished down graphic representing a song's waveform.

    There is an old internet saying... When everyone online seems like an idiot, chances are, YOU are the idiot. (the old saying doesn't use the word "idiot" but I changed it in deference to Castle.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
  5. 71 dB
    Another toxic thread. I fail to see why TheSonicTruth is wrong. Compression has been used for commercial reasons ("must be louder than competing songs on radio!") in ways that are against some aspects of sound quality. Music that was created to be dynamic is likely to sound "wrong" when compressed to be less dynamic. I agree with TheSonicTruth that envelopes are a good visual way to inspect and compare dynamic properties just as illustrated in his avatar.
     
  6. TheSonicTruth
    So are what appear in my avatar waveforms or envelopes?
     
  7. bigshot
    All I can see from his avatar is two different volume levels. I have no idea if the two samples have different compression. Squashed down loud waveforms don't look the same as squashed down quiet ones. The display isn't totally linear.
     
  8. 71 dB
    Your avatar has waveforms. Envelopes are what you get when you do for example lossy integration of squared signal (power).
     
  9. 71 dB
    You clearly haven't played with signal much have you? The louder waveform is more compressed and lacks the spikes the quiter has. It can't have, because the spikes would be over 0 dBFS which is impossible.
     
    TheSonicTruth likes this.
  10. bigshot
    In my audio editing program, as the timeline gets compressed tighter, there is less and less variation visible in the waveform, especially at higher volumes, probably because it's averaging a wider sample, or perhaps because it's focusing on peaks. I don't know. But the purpose of the blown down graph is to locate places in the track, like a map. Not to reflect sound quality.

    And compressing momentary spikes with a peak limiter doesn't necessarily alter the overall compression level of the song. We've already been all over this though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  11. TheSonicTruth
    The Rec.Audio.Pro guys would beg to differ: If individual waves or spikes cannot be discerned, they'd call that an envelope.

    I'm less inclined to nit-pick than those guys, and more inclined to agree with you on the assessment of my avatar.
     
  12. bigshot
    I've only heard the term envelope used in relation to the shape of the attack and decay of a sound. Digital reverbs allow you to control the envelope around the sound. I think you didn't understand what was being said to you and you grabbed onto the wrong term.
     
  13. castleofargh Contributor
    in REW the envelope thingy refers to ETC(energy time ... castleofargh?). it's a pretty neat visualization to check big room reflections of the impulse. but I'm going to go on a limb and assume that's not what anybody was talking about ^_^. the idea of envelope is pretty simple but I guess it can apply to a bunch of things in a bunch of ways? none where I readily see the dynamic of a song, unless the graph follows very well the audio signal instead of sort of massively smoothing the all thing by aligning on the peaks. but then wouldn't it be more effective to just show the signal itself?
    I'm probably talking nonsense because I'm really not familiar with, not the notion, but what uses we can make of envelopes in audio. the mental image I have is something that will completely miss out on the quiet signals so long as louder ones are close by. and obviously that won't show dynamic of compression use at all. so do I get the wrong idea? is there a setting for how much the result is smoothed?
     
  14. TheSonicTruth
    Shall I get 'None' on here to explain it?

    PSYCH! When it responds it's like a toilet overflow, never mind! lol
     
  15. 71 dB
    It is a matter of taste. How do you define a spike? Individual samples or a group of sample points? In your avatar "spikes" are visible, just not sample points.
     
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