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Hugo TT 2 by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread

Discussion in 'High-end Audio Forum' started by ChordElectronics, May 10, 2018.
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  1. x RELIC x Contributor
    I really don't want to get too deep in to this conversation, BUT, Rob hasn't ever claimed 'just numbers' are important. In fact he says that his TAPs with his WTA algorithm are what make it good. On the other hand, Rob has pointed out that other filters are 'just numbers' without the proper algorithm.

    Looks like each side is accusing the other side of the same thing, LOL.
     
  2. Foxman50
    Classic case of over analysing if you ask me.
    If you can afford it and like it then buy it. Chord will always create compromised products at various price points, its called business.
    As for the power plug issue, unplug it at the wall if you feel the need.
    Relax and enjoy the music.
     
  3. Christer
    Interesting take on these things.
    But personally , and without much tech knowledge I still have an interest in the possible progress and advances of digital recording and reproduction that's why I rant away here at times. Rob probably would say :"No there is only one way to skin this particular cat" but I also want to hear what others have to say on the subject.

    Furthermore you can both "skin a cat" and "skim" it I don't like being skimmed.
    Or suspect that I might be skimmed.
    There are claims that the skinning of the cat can be be done as well or better than Rob's way and at much lower costs too.
    I have yet to hear any that does but does not rule out the possiblity of it happening.

    As far as the DSD/PCM fight goes although I personally know some pros in the classical world who were firmly in the DSD camp and their recordings can sound excellent .But I tend to suspect that Rob might be absolutely correct about at least DSD 64.
    Things may even out and possibly be somewhat different from DSD256 and up to DSD 512 and recently at least in theory DSD 1024 I don't know for sure more than that there are contrary claims from both camps.
    I have but one native raw masterfile from one such source in both DSD 64/128 and 256 and DXD and to me the DXD sounds slightly closer to how I have remember that orchestra sounded in that hall.
    Via M Scaler it can sound very lifelike indeed.
    But what I look forward to hearing asap is native 768KHz against native DSD512 or DSD 1024. That would be interesting I think.



    Even via my relatively humble travel kit Qutest/M Scaler/Sennheiser HD800 via battey powered headphone amp,as good as some DSD 64 recordings I have actually been to myself can sound, really well recorded hi res pcm can sound more transparent than DSD 64.

    And I am talking about often large scale very complex symphonic and operatic material,not the best DSD or PCM version of Hotel California or such,which some use as a reference in such SQ comparisons.
    The more complex the scoring the more obvious the differences are to my ears.
    100 instruments and voices is a lot more to handle than any band IMO.
    Some cats are actually bigger than others!
    Cheers Controversial Christer
     
    Ragnar-BY likes this.
  4. Christer
    Interesting take on these things.
    But personally , and without much tech knowledge I still have an interest in the possible progress and advances of digital recording and reproduction that's why I rant away here at times. Rob probably would say :"No there is only one way to skin this particular cat" but I also want to hear what others have to say on the subject.

    Furthermore you can both "skin a cat" and "skim" it I don't like being skimmed.
    Or suspect that I might be skimmed.
    There are claims that the skinning of the cat can be be done as well or better than Rob's way and at much lower costs too.
    I have yet to hear any that does but does not rule out the possiblity of it happening.

    As far as the DSD/PCM fight goes although I personally know some pros in the classical world who were firmly in the DSD camp and their recordings can sound excellent .But I tend to suspect that Rob might be absolutely correct about at least DSD 64.
    Things may even out and possibly be somewhat different from DSD256 and up to DSD 512 and recently at least in theory DSD 1024 I don't know for sure more than that there are contrary claims from both camps.
    I have but one native raw masterfile from one such source in both DSD 64/128 and 256 and DXD and to me the DXD sounds slightly closer to how I have remember that orchestra sounded in that hall.
    Via M Scaler it can sound very lifelike indeed.
    But what I look forward to hearing asap is native 768KHz against native DSD512 or DSD 1024. That would be interesting I think.



    Even via my relatively humble travel kit Qutest/M Scaler/Sennheiser HD800 via battey powered headphone amp,as good as some DSD 64 recordings I have actually been to myself can sound, really well recorded hi res pcm can sound more transparent than DSD 64.

    And I am talking about often large scale very complex symphonic and operatic material,not the best DSD or PCM version of Hotel California or such,which some use as a reference in such SQ comparisons.
    The more complex the scoring the more obvious the differences are to my ears.
    100 instruments and voices is a lot more to handle than any band IMO.
    Some cats are actually bigger than others!
    Cheers Controversial Christer
     
  5. Christer
    Yes it does look like they do and I find that a bit contradictory and would like to know if both can be right or not?
    Cheers Controversial Christer
     
  6. mlxx
    Quality of taps always matters. The number of taps depends on what you are trying to do and also what is possible with the processing power available.
    For what the mscaler is trying to do, we need an infinite sinc tap filter ideally, so we need quality and number here.
     
    Triode User likes this.
  7. Triode User
    . . . . and Rob's algorithms (which others of course do not have).
     
  8. mlxx
    Lets simplify things and compare to DSD1024...
    You can think of the pulse array dac as a "better" DSD dac. The pulse array already runs at 2048FS, that is like DSD2048. Elements are not like bits, they are levels, going from 32e to 64e is like adding 1 more bit, so from 5 bits to 6 bits. Dave has 20e running at twice the frequency of DSD1024. The mscaler is as close to perfect in its reconstruction that we can currently get in realtime. Plus the noise shapers, amp section etc, technically, I don't see it being any contest (and the measurements show it). I also think mDave sounds the best. Yeah it costs a lot and will be outdated, be glad you didn't get an Abyss Phi CC recently.
     
    musickid and Triode User like this.
  9. Christer
    But what is quality of taps?
    I remember a thing someone said about number of taps comparing the number of taps to the number of measuring points on a chart or map of a coastline. The more measurement points and there are along the coastline the more accurate the chart or map. Sounds rather logical doesn't it?
    But quality of taps?
    Cheers Controversial Christer
     
  10. Christer
    Thanks that explains things more clearly to me.
    And tallies well with what I keep hearing via M Scaler in comparison with native DSD via some other DACs. I was under the obviously wrong impression that at least DSD 1024 was a more advanced "faster" higher sampling rate than M Scaler.
    Thanks for educating me.
    It is quite comforting to be told that what I hear from my M Scaler obviously also is the most advanced tech in spite of what some other sources claim?
    Abyss warning?
    Well I only bought the then still very expensive HEKV2 a couple of years ago but I am not so sure any longer that it is really that much better than my old Sennheiser HD 800 now that I have the M Scaler.
    I don't travel with my set this winter but during my auditions of M Scaler with quite a few high quality headphones it was not as convincing as I had expected it to be any longer.
    And Abyss,well that is a heavy beast I don't want to wear more than a few minutes.
    I will put my HEKV2 through tough listening tests later this spring.
    I have to confess I am quite happy with my old HD 800 with M Scaler/Qutest for now.
    I don't really miss the HEKV2 much.
    But I am beginning to miss my usual weekly live classical concerts.
    I have attended over 20 live concerts and some rehearsals this winter in Asia.
    But I have been in Thailand over a month now without any concerts. I don't visit Bangkok I don't want to breathe Bangkok's air.
    I won't get to hear an orchestra live until mid March again.
    On the other hand I can swim one k daily in warm clear blue water and breathe fresh air and listen to my favourite music via M Scaler and headphones.


    Cheers Controversial Christer
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  11. mlxx
    For the mscaler, it is a sinc function as per the sampling theory, its a formula you can use to get the tap values and a window function. For other situations it is not as clear, you have to design to meet specs and resources. Like the video filter on the mscaler, it has to have low latency so you have to compromise here, it becomes harder to design and which is better becomes debatable. A digital filter is like a mathematical transformation, what needs to be done to a set of numbers to achieve what we want.
     
  12. Christer
    Thanks again, Yes to me it seems the real Achilles heel of M Scaler tech seems to be this latency problem.
    I haven't really used the video function/ setting much since I am on very slow wifi here and can't stream any music videos .
    But when I could it was strange to see how obvious the latency problem was without the filter set for video.
    I normally watch a lot of classical concerts too and it is weird when the conductor's beat is off or lip synch is also off or a pianist's fingers on the keyboard and the notes heard are not in synch.
    In an ideal world I would like all the 1 M taps fully at work even with videos. But that seems impossible to achieve?
    Cheers Controversial Christer
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  13. mlxx
    Yes for the ideal sinc FIR case... with long tap length, 1M taps, you have to wait for half the samples because it looks into the future, so 500k samples which is too long for video. IIR has no delay but no good for this case. Rob did an asymmetric FIR to reduce it, has less taps for future.
     
  14. dawktah2
    Dear (dawktah2),

    Thank you for your order from Moon-Audio.com! We wanted to let you know that your order (#10000XXXXX) was shipped via FedEx, FedEx Ground® on 2/19/2019. Whoo Hoo!:ksc75smile:
     
    Deftone, jarnopp, musickid and 5 others like this.
  15. ZappaMan
    Sweet
     
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