[Mediahound]

Roon has some tips for when running Roon core from a computer here:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sound_Quality_in_One_Computer

Note however that any sound quality difference you hear may only be very slight and part of the reason Roon states this is because they want to sell you on one of their Nucleus devices.

Is a Network Streamer an improvement with a Chord DAVE/Mscaler - Roon Core on QNAP Setup?

I have the above configuration QNAP TS-473 16GB of ram, both Roon and music on SSDs, and I don't run anything apart from Roon on the NAS.

I have tried Pro-ject Ultra Stream 2, degraded the sound and the Auralic Aries G1 no difference from going direct from the QNAP via USB into the Mscaler.

My understanding of the recommended Roon architecture is that the Core and Output should be separate, which in this case it is as the Mscaler is the output and separated from the DAVE via dual BNCs.

I've read various reviews saying the DCS Network Bridge improves the sound of the DAVE when streaming, however they did not have an MScaler in the setup. Does anyone have a similar DAVE/Mscaler setup and addding a network streamer improved the sound?

 

[iamoneagain]

My understanding of the recommended Roon architecture is that the Core and Output should be separate, which in this case it is as the Mscaler is the output and separated from the DAVE via dual BNCs.

My understanding of what that meant was to use roon bridge as the output and the core on separate machine. So the output source Is doing very little work.

I was using Mac mini with optical and didn’t think running the core on it would have any effect. But when I moved the core to my iMac and made the mini just output bridge, it improved soundstage. The cpu is basically idle when used as a bridge. This has a bigger effect if using usb but somehow even optical output improved.

 

[Mediahound]

I was using Mac mini with optical and didn’t think running the core on it would have any effect. But when I moved the core to my iMac and made the mini just output bridge, it improved soundstage. The cpu is basically idle when used as a bridge. This has a bigger effect if using usb but somehow even optical output improved.

I've tried this via usb on 2 Macs and couldn't hear any difference myself than just running Roon all in one on one Mac directly.

 

[Ards]

I've read various reviews saying the DCS Network Bridge improves the sound of the DAVE when streaming, however they did not have an MScaler in the setup. Does anyone have a similar DAVE/Mscaler setup and addding a network streamer improved the sound?

Yes. Went through a bunch of streamers over the past year (Innuos/Auralic/Senore/Bel Canto/dCS Network Bridge): they all made a difference even with MScaler in front of DAVE. Worth experimenting to find the best one for your system...

 

[gnomen]

I've just installed a dCS Network Bridge in front of my MScaler/TT2 setup because the improvement is obvious. The sound has more dimension, body and depth. It allows the MScaler to do even more of what it does so well. My system now sounds pretty close to what I hear in the concert hall (if I ever get to a concert hall again!)

I spent over a year listening to different combinations, particularly network bridges. Some inexpensive, some pricey. The dCS proved to be top quality, as the reviewers have unanimously stated. I would like to have spent that money on a Roon Nucleus or an upgrade to Dave, but decided the bridge was the best value next step.

 

[MaggotBrain]

Roon has some tips for when running Roon core from a computer here:

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sound_Quality_in_One_Computer

Note however that any sound quality difference you hear may only be very slight and part of the reason Roon states this is because they want to sell you on one of their Nucleus devices.

I think I can answer your question because I have two setups and I recently tweaked them. I had my Roon Core on an Innuos zenith SE connected to Kii Threes (powered speakers with built in DAC), which doubles as speakers for my living room TV. But I wasn’t using the setup to listen to music as much as my other system - m scaler/Dave/ATC SCM 100s (powered speakers without a DAC) that I used to use a Microsoft Surface Studio as a Roon Endpoint. The improvement in sound quality was quite profound, bettered only by the recent addition of Innuos Phoenix (a USB reclocker), which is in a word sublime. Do not underestimate upgrading your front end - it just makes sense. you could be an awesome chef but if your ingredients are rubbish then good luck getting Michelin star results from a pantry stocked with candy corn and Easy Cheese.

 

[hansdampf123]

Hi all, maybe someone can help:

I own Dave/HMS fed via USB from Macbook. Its awesome. But I came across 2 problems I can't really wrap my head around.

1. buzzing/tingling. MScaler has some tingling/electric buzz when I touch it. I read here that RW says its normal and due to some leakage current. I find it borderline unpleasant as I use it as tt setup und actually touch it. I reached out for support and they recommended grounding the HMS by connecting the single BNC output to free input of the Dave. That worked! Support mentions this though: "However this will defeat the galvanic isolation in the M scaler to make sure that the units are not grounded together." I don't understand this part. I thought galvanic isolation only comes into play with USB connection. Is USB conection compromised by grounding the MScaler via Dave? Should I switch to optical (Macbook>Mini-Toslink>MScaler)? Is the grounding procedure degrading other benefits of the unit/s and therefore SQ?
Maybe someone can enlighten me.

2. SQ is hugely depenend on daytime. The setup is sometimes unlistenable at certain times (harsh/compressed/no dynamics/flat). After midnight it's sublime. I am sure that pollutet power of the house creating all kinds of noise is the culprit. Do you experience the same and how do you cope with that (filter/conditioners/cables). Do ferritted cables (Wave) help to a certain extent?

Thank you.
Cheers.

 

[TheAttorney]

The improvement in sound quality was quite profound, bettered only by the recent addition of Innuos Phoenix (a USB reclocker), which is in a word sublime.

Was the Phoenix reclocker in addition to the Endpoint, or instead of?
If the former, have you tried completely replacing the Endpoint with the Phoenix?

In the past, I've had a microRendu Roon Endpoint, which gave a very worthwhile improvement to my W10 laptop server. And adding the IsoRegen reclocker gave a further improvement when added downstream of the Endpoint. Since then, I've been trying to downsize and reduce the spaghetti, so now have USB-only connection from my NUC server, but still with IsoRegen reclocker. I imagine the Pheonix would be a step up from the IR, but shame that it's about 1,000 times bigger.

In all cases, this is with HMS/DAVE. I've found that the inclusion of HMS in no way reduces the need for upstream improvements - if anything, upstream improvements have become even more obvious, despite just about every component claiming galvanic isolation, immunity to jitter, etc, etc.

 

[ecwl]

Hi all, maybe someone can help:

I own Dave/HMS fed via USB from Macbook. Its awesome. But I came across 2 problems I can't really wrap my head around.

1. buzzing/tingling. MScaler has some tingling/electric buzz when I touch it. I read here that RW says its normal and due to some leakage current. I find it borderline unpleasant as I use it as tt setup und actually touch it. I reached out for support and they recommended grounding the HMS by connecting the single BNC output to free input of the Dave. That worked! Support mentions this though: "However this will defeat the galvanic isolation in the M scaler to make sure that the units are not grounded together." I don't understand this part. I thought galvanic isolation only comes into play with USB connection. Is USB conection compromised by grounding the MScaler via Dave? Should I switch to optical (Macbook>Mini-Toslink>MScaler)? Is the grounding procedure degrading other benefits of the unit/s and therefore SQ?
Maybe someone can enlighten me.

I’m a bit mystified why you have grounding issues with HMS and DAVE. What else is connect to DAVE or HMS that is also grounded? Is your laptop plugged into the power bar or is it running off batteries? Are all the gear on the same power bar or are some of them on a different circuit? A MacBook running off batteries connected to HMS and DAVE to your headphones shouldn’t cause these buzzing and tingling. But yes, if you defeated the galvanic isolation, you might want to use Toslink as an output. The galvanic isolation works on the USB but also on the dual BNC output from M-Scaler to DAVE.

 

[hansdampf123]

I’m a bit mystified why you have grounding issues with HMS and DAVE. What else is connect to DAVE or HMS that is also grounded? Is your laptop plugged into the power bar or is it running off batteries? Are all the gear on the same power bar or are some of them on a different circuit? A MacBook running off batteries connected to HMS and DAVE to your headphones shouldn’t cause these buzzing and tingling. But yes, if you defeated the galvanic isolation, you might want to use Toslink as an output. The galvanic isolation works on the USB but also on the dual BNC output from M-Scaler to DAVE.

Dave, HMS and Phonitor amp go into the same power strip which goes to the wall.
Macbook is from Battery, when connect Macbook to power strip as well, the buzzing/tingling jumps to different components (Dave or Macbook or Phonitor).

Why exactly are you mystified? RW stated it is normal behavior. Other members reported the same behavior with HMS, TT2 or Dave. Could it be to a defective unit?
What shortcommings are coming along with the grounding procedure I mentioned?

Maybe Rob Watts can help out?

@Rob Watts

Thanks alot!

 

[miketlse]

Dave, HMS and Phonitor amp go into the same power strip which goes to the wall.
Macbook is from Battery, when connect Macbook to power strip as well, the buzzing/tingling jumps to different components (Dave or Macbook or Phonitor).

Why exactly are you mystified? RW stated it is normal behavior. Other members reported the same behavior with HMS, TT2 or Dave. Could it be to a defective unit?
What shortcommings are coming along with the grounding procedure I mentioned?

Maybe Rob Watts can help out?

Better to use the correct link for @Rob Watts

 

[ecwl]

Dave, HMS and Phonitor amp go into the same power strip which goes to the wall.
Macbook is from Battery, when connect Macbook to power strip as well, the buzzing/tingling jumps to different components (Dave or Macbook or Phonitor).

Why exactly are you mystified? RW stated it is normal behavior. Other members reported the same behavior with HMS, TT2 or Dave. Could it be to a defective unit?
What shortcommings are coming along with the grounding procedure I mentioned?

Maybe Rob Watts can help out?

@rob Watts

Thanks alot!

Yeah. Not mystified anymore. Definitely not a defective unit.
Sounds like it's ground noise coming from your MacBook when plugged in, into the rest of the system?
Maybe try running the MacBook from battery and not have it plugged to the power strip? And then when the battery drains, stop the music and plug the power back into charge?
Or yes, you can have the MacBook plugged into the power strip all the time and just send Toslink into M-Scaler. And then see if you still need to ground the M-Scaler to DAVE.
And it's hard to say what shortcommings there are with the grounding because DAVE and M-Scaler already filter out a lot of noise so even with it grounded, it's possible that DAVE and M-Scaler would still be able to filter out the residual noise without the galvanic isolation.

 

[MaggotBrain]

Was the Phoenix reclocker in addition to the Endpoint, or instead of?
If the former, have you tried completely replacing the Endpoint with the Phoenix?

To be clear, I have always had the Innuos Zenith SE as my Roon Core. But to make improvements in sound quality to my main listening environment I effectively swapped out my surface studio as an endpoint (effectively taking it out of the equation except as an overqualified remote control) and replaced it my with Zenith SE and recently bought Phoenix - connecting the Zenith right to the the HMS. (I’m using a MacBook for now feeding the Kiis in another room). I should mention I did have a Wyred 4 Sound Recovery as an entry level reclocker which made a subtle improvement in sound quality but the Phoenix made the biggest improvement in my system since, quite frankly, adding the M Scaler to the Dave. It really makes you sound like you are in the studio - vocals are richer, and guitar notes that previously ran together are more easily delineated - you can hear each note more clearly. It’s really quite enjoyable. I also listened with an original Abyss headphone with a DHS Prion cable and it was incredible.

I should note customer support from Innuos was top notch - when I had issues with Roon crashing right after I bought the Phoenix, Nino from Innuos logged in my system remotely (on a weekend no less) and cleaned up my Roon directory (apparently my cache was filling up) allowing my system to run flawlessly now.

 

[Triode User]

Was the Phoenix reclocker in addition to the Endpoint, or instead of?
If the former, have you tried completely replacing the Endpoint with the Phoenix?

You can’t use the Phoenix as an endpoint.

 

[hansdampf123]

Better to use the correct link for @Rob Watts

Yeah. Not mystified anymore. Definitely not a defective unit.
Sounds like it's ground noise coming from your MacBook when plugged in, into the rest of the system?
Maybe try running the MacBook from battery and not have it plugged to the power strip? And then when the battery drains, stop the music and plug the power back into charge?
Or yes, you can have the MacBook plugged into the power strip all the time and just send Toslink into M-Scaler. And then see if you still need to ground the M-Scaler to DAVE.
And it's hard to say what shortcommings there are with the grounding because DAVE and M-Scaler already filter out a lot of noise so even with it grounded, it's possible that DAVE and M-Scaler would still be able to filter out the residual noise without the galvanic isolation.

Maybe I was not clear.
My issue is not first and foremost about noise, but tingling, static buzz of the M Scaler unit.
It happens also when Macbook is running on battery (!).
It also happens without the Macbook connected at all and with HMS on standby, as long as HMS is connected to power.
When Macbook plugged in, the tingling additionally kind of jumps all over the place in my chain, but I can avoid that by using MBP on battery.

I got rid of the HMS tingling by grounding HMS via Dave with additional connection between the two.
The complete chain is connected to one power strip.

BUT i wonder if this grounding fix influences/compromises the noise avoiding features (galvanic isolation) of the Dave/M Scaler unit and therefore SQ
as circuit boards are now grounded as a unit.

Last but not least I wonder if every HMS show that tingling behavior.

Thank you again.

@Rob Watts