Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread
Feb 7, 2022 at 8:33 PM Post #14,866 of 16,267

musickid

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Sep 9, 2016
Posts
4,162
Likes
2,138
Location
U.K.
There is extensive comparisons of chargers on the mojo thread and some of these companies making the chargers also make powerbanks. How relevant this is i do not know.
 
Feb 7, 2022 at 9:26 PM Post #14,867 of 16,267

bpcans

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Posts
2,019
Likes
1,442
Location
Madeline Island, La Pointe, Wisconsin
I find it hard to believe that Chord do not advise separating the mscaler and tt2 if rfi other than through cables is such a problem. They should know the distance required. But of course this is audio so measurements do not apply.
@Progisus, I believe that the HMS and TT2 were designed as a somewhat compact desktop DAC amplifier upsampling solution, and in their stacked configuration I found them to work very well together. Which was good because at the time that I got them space in our tiny townhouse was at a severe premium. I’m lucky now to have much more room for my audio gear, and have been able to recently separate properly my components with some distance between them. Now my poor M Scaler is resigned and banished to a place in the corner all by its lonesome. But I don’t have to think about getting a black HMS anymore because everything on my gear rack matches now. “Patience young Jedi”, or something to that affect.
 

Attachments

  • 0FFC2D73-46F5-4111-8EB7-8F4E4D183F0E.jpeg
    0FFC2D73-46F5-4111-8EB7-8F4E4D183F0E.jpeg
    2.6 MB · Views: 0
  • BF15178A-A4AC-42A5-83B5-87F1382BF3CC.jpeg
    BF15178A-A4AC-42A5-83B5-87F1382BF3CC.jpeg
    2.1 MB · Views: 0
Feb 7, 2022 at 10:46 PM Post #14,868 of 16,267

Progisus

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
May 28, 2018
Posts
1,758
Likes
2,066
Location
Canada
@Progisus, I believe that the HMS and TT2 were designed as a somewhat compact desktop DAC amplifier upsampling solution, and in their stacked configuration I found them to work very well together. Which was good because at the time that I got them space in our tiny townhouse was at a severe premium. I’m lucky now to have much more room for my audio gear, and have been able to recently separate properly my components with some distance between them. Now my poor M Scaler is resigned and banished to a place in the corner all by its lonesome. But I don’t have to think about getting a black HMS anymore because everything on my gear rack matches now. “Patience young Jedi”, or something to that affect.
Did you notice a significant (to your ears) uptick in the sound by separating them. Just as I will not switch from roon to squeeze even though I hear a difference, I cannot bring myself to hide my mscaler behind a chair. lol. It is the way.
 
Feb 7, 2022 at 11:02 PM Post #14,869 of 16,267

bpcans

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Posts
2,019
Likes
1,442
Location
Madeline Island, La Pointe, Wisconsin
@Progisus, yes after listening to this setup for several hours now I believe that I’m hearing more clarity in the music like a layer of see through fabric has been pulled away. The difference became very apparent when I started listening to this live recording of a Puccini opera called La Rondine that @dcp10 turned me onto today.
 

Attachments

  • C99C05B4-FB44-437A-8861-319EA44EA9F9.png
    C99C05B4-FB44-437A-8861-319EA44EA9F9.png
    2.7 MB · Views: 0
Feb 8, 2022 at 9:25 AM Post #14,870 of 16,267

GreenBow

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Posts
4,182
Likes
1,584
You've all got me wondering about RFI for my mScaler/TT2 stack.

Currently running Silver Dragon BNCs between them, powering them with a battery. Source is Digione powered by Shanti outputting S/PDIF to mScaler BNC.

I've read a bunch of posts talking about how much improvement the Opto DX can bring, so of course my fingers got itchy again :)

But I'm wondering if there's a way for me to know if I have a problem to solve. I'm familiar with the sort of RFI my DAPs can pick up from (say) my cell phone. But what should I be listening for with my mTT2 stack? I mean by the time I get the Opto with the premium optical cable, (two ?) LPSs to run it, and another quality BNC cable pair, I could be half way towards another TOTL set of cans. So I'd like to know whether this problem actually exists with my system.

Other noisy questions:

- What LPS are folks using to power the Opto?
- Are you using two separate LPSs for the transmitter & receiver?
- How far apart are your mScaler and TT2?
- Is vertical spacing as good as horizontal spacing?

Stuck between
don't let perfect be the enemy of good
and
strive for perfection so when you fall short it's still very good

For me, not knowing how to deal with the noise is probably partly keeping me from the M-Scaler.

I understand that the simplest one stop solution is the WAVE - High Fidelity coaxial cables.

However as far as I understood there are two types of noise to deal with.

1. Mains noise at around 2GHz.

2. Noise from the M-Scaler chip.


I half-presume the WAVE cables deal with both types of noise. Like the designer must have tested different ferrites until happy with the sound.

Given then that the WAVE cables block the 2GHz mains noise and the M-Scaler chip noise. I heard also that noise can travel from the M-Scaler back through the power supply and into the mains. Then that noise can use the mains route to get to the DAC. ... (If that is true then it even negates the Opto-DX.)

It leaves me in a position where I don't know what to think.

I honestly thought the general and right impression was buy the WAVE cables and you're good. Easy fix. (Either that or make your own.) ... However where does that leave the theory that noise can travel via the mains.

There is of course within the TT2 supercaps in the PSU. That may protect the TT2 from M-Scaler noise travelling via mains.

I'll just find a facepalm emoji and give up I think. Lucky that I have always felt the Hugo 2, Qutest, and Hugo 2 sound great by themselves. Honestly never felt the need to upgrade sound from any of them. Secondly I find using electrostatic headphones is an excellent alternative. They are straight on leading edges, and timbre.
 
Last edited:
Feb 8, 2022 at 12:33 PM Post #14,871 of 16,267

ra990

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jun 13, 2017
Posts
2,049
Likes
3,456
Location
Virginia, USA
For me, not knowing how to deal with the noise is probably partly keeping me from the M-Scaler.

I understand that the simplest one stop solution is the WAVE - High Fidelity coaxial cables.

However as far as I understood there are two types of noise to deal with.

1. Mains noise at around 2GHz.

2. Noise from the M-Scaler chip.


I half-presume the WAVE cables deal with both types of noise. Like the designer must have tested different ferrites until happy with the sound.

Given then that the WAVE cables block the 2GHz mains noise and the M-Scaler chip noise. I heard also that noise can travel from the M-Scaler back through the power supply and into the mains. Then that noise can use the mains route to get to the DAC. ... (If that is true then it even negates the Opto-DX.)

It leaves me in a position where I don't know what to think.

I honestly thought the general and right impression was buy the WAVE cables and you're good. Easy fix. (Either that or make your own.) ... However where does that leave the theory that noise can travel via the mains.

There is of course within the TT2 supercaps in the PSU. That may protect the TT2 from M-Scaler noise travelling via mains.

I'll just find a facepalm emoji and give up I think. Lucky that I have always felt the Hugo 2, Qutest, and Hugo 2 sound great by themselves. Honestly never felt the need to upgrade sound from any of them. Secondly I find using electrostatic headphones is an excellent alternative. They are straight on leading edges, and timbre.
Try powering from a battery and most of these issues go away.
 
Feb 8, 2022 at 1:14 PM Post #14,872 of 16,267

ecwl

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
762
Likes
781
Location
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
For me, not knowing how to deal with the noise is probably partly keeping me from the M-Scaler.
I feel like you're overthinking this.
To me, there are theoretical issues and real issues.
The real issue with getting the M-Scaler is that some people can't hear the improvements.

The theoretical issue are the noise issues that you talked about. I wasn't aware of these issues and I enjoyed my Blu2 and now M-Scaler with DAVE just fine for a very long time.
So if you're not having noise issues with Qutest, TT2, you're unlikely to have significant noise issues by adding the M-Scaler.
Of course, as with all audio systems, there are tweaks that you can make to even optimize/enhance the sound further. And yes, by obsessively optimizing your system to avoid these noise issues, you can push your M-Scaler+Chord DAC system to a slightly better level of performance. But ultimately, the big jump if you can hear the difference is from the M-Scaler itself.
 
Feb 8, 2022 at 3:37 PM Post #14,873 of 16,267

LCMusicLover

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Posts
3,227
Likes
3,011
Location
Oregon Coast
Feb 8, 2022 at 4:37 PM Post #14,874 of 16,267

griff500

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Posts
755
Likes
975
Location
UK
For me, not knowing how to deal with the noise is probably partly keeping me from the M-Scaler.

I understand that the simplest one stop solution is the WAVE - High Fidelity coaxial cables.

However as far as I understood there are two types of noise to deal with.

1. Mains noise at around 2GHz.

2. Noise from the M-Scaler chip.


I half-presume the WAVE cables deal with both types of noise. Like the designer must have tested different ferrites until happy with the sound.

Given then that the WAVE cables block the 2GHz mains noise and the M-Scaler chip noise. I heard also that noise can travel from the M-Scaler back through the power supply and into the mains. Then that noise can use the mains route to get to the DAC. ... (If that is true then it even negates the Opto-DX.)

It leaves me in a position where I don't know what to think.

I honestly thought the general and right impression was buy the WAVE cables and you're good. Easy fix. (Either that or make your own.) ... However where does that leave the theory that noise can travel via the mains.

There is of course within the TT2 supercaps in the PSU. That may protect the TT2 from M-Scaler noise travelling via mains.

I'll just find a facepalm emoji and give up I think. Lucky that I have always felt the Hugo 2, Qutest, and Hugo 2 sound great by themselves. Honestly never felt the need to upgrade sound from any of them. Secondly I find using electrostatic headphones is an excellent alternative. They are straight on leading edges, and timbre.
I use a power distributor from Ansuz and everything in my system is connected to it. This made a worthwhile difference.

WAVE cables are an essential to get the most out of the M-Scaler in my opinion.

If you like the DACs you have mentioned then instead of getting an M-Scaler and WAVE cables just get a Dave and be happy. :thumbsup:
 
Feb 8, 2022 at 6:45 PM Post #14,875 of 16,267

bpcans

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Posts
2,019
Likes
1,442
Location
Madeline Island, La Pointe, Wisconsin
@griff500, great point sir. If another audiophile enthusiast can afford either a TT2 or a DAVE, then they should allow themselves the joy of having one of the best sounding DACs in production today.
 
Feb 8, 2022 at 6:48 PM Post #14,876 of 16,267

alekc

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Posts
832
Likes
1,083
Location
EU
If you like the DACs you have mentioned then instead of getting an M-Scaler and WAVE cables just get a Dave and be happy. :thumbsup:
@griff500 not every owner of TT2 went with M Scaler to try to catch up with Dave, some - like me - selected TT2 due to different sound signature which I prefer over Dave. Dave has been too much analytical to me and bit too bright. Great for short listening session but not for longer ones, especially when I am working for example. Hence I went with TT2.
 
Feb 9, 2022 at 4:54 AM Post #14,877 of 16,267

griff500

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Posts
755
Likes
975
Location
UK
@griff500 not every owner of TT2 went with M Scaler to try to catch up with Dave, some - like me - selected TT2 due to different sound signature which I prefer over Dave. Dave has been too much analytical to me and bit too bright. Great for short listening session but not for longer ones, especially when I am working for example. Hence I went with TT2.
I was not suggesting that people were buying the M-Scaler to get their TT2 close to a Dave. I simply meant that I would prefer a Dave on it’s own to the TT2 with M-Scaler.

I assume people add the M-Scaler to their TT2 for the same reasons I did - for what the M-Scaler brings to the TT2. Personally, I feel that it brings more to the TT2 than it does to the Dave.

Perhaps due to it’s output stage, but I guess the TT2 could be described as warmer? Personal preference, etc, although I really don’t think the Dave is bright, which is a word I would associate with a thin or shrill treble.
 
Last edited:
Feb 9, 2022 at 6:15 AM Post #14,878 of 16,267

alekc

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Posts
832
Likes
1,083
Location
EU
I was not suggesting that people were buying the M-Scaler to get their TT2 close to a Dave. I simply meant that I would prefer a Dave on it’s own to the TT2 with M-Scaler.

I assume people add the M-Scaler to their TT2 for the same reasons I did - for what the M-Scaler brings to the TT2. Personally, I feel that it brings more to the TT2 than it does to the Dave.

Perhaps due to it’s output stage, but I guess the TT2 could be described as warmer? Personal preference, etc, although I really don’t think the Dave is bright, which is a word I would associate with a thin or shrill treble.
@griff500 please excuse my misinterpretation of your post then. I completely agree that M Scaler gives a lot more in case of HTT2 than to Dave. On the other hand - please forgive repeating myself but I think this is important note since you've mentioned output stage - the most crucial HTT2 add-on I have and have heard so far is AuroraSound HEADA amp. While I could live without M Scaler with HTT2, I would strongly miss this headamp from my HTT2 chain.
 
Feb 9, 2022 at 7:12 AM Post #14,879 of 16,267

rkt31

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Posts
1,990
Likes
704
Thanks Rob, I understand very well. Before I asked this question here, I also asked Chord's support centre.
Their answer was partly correct, but not as perfect as your explanation.
This is email answer from Chord Support;
"Mscaler processes as PCM. Anything sent to it is processed and output as PCM, irrespective of the format and input it was received in. When no upsampling is requested, 1/1 DSD/PCM conversion will take place Even when sent direct to the TT2, DSD is converted to PCM as it works better and you can implement a volume control"

Now I know what process is take place and what is different between DAVE and TT2, and yes, DSD is anyway convert to PCM.
This fact puts me on serious consideration whether I should buy an M-Scaler....
dsd native playback is a myth. dsd was originally conceived to be used with analog low pass filter. at that time processing power was a constraint. these days almost all dsd dacs process dsd in some way or another, even if they don't decimate the dsd stream to 24bit word length. rarely you will see a dac these which uses analog low pass filtering. so as rob watts said dsd to pcm conversion in m scaler with 220db attenuation of noise is what you won't get in any dac. no other dac won't give this much better measured performance with dsd.
 
Feb 11, 2022 at 9:25 AM Post #14,880 of 16,267

ecwl

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
762
Likes
781
Location
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
I have noticed based on the posts here that it seems like about 1 in 20 purchasers of M-Scaler can't hear the improvements from the M-Scaler. To me, the primary improvement is transient accuracy, e.g. drum strikes, guitar plucks which are the easiest thing to hear and once you get used to the improved transient accuracy, your ears adjust and notice other improvements too. I know others find the primary improvement is to the bass.

But the question is whether there is a way for people to test themselves before purchasing M-Scaler to try (as some people just can't demo M-Scaler at their local stores). Hence, I wonder for owners of TT2/Qutest/Hugo 2, whether their ability to hear the difference between the white vs orange or green vs red filter (incisive neutral vs warm filter) is a good surrogate to determine if people are sufficiently sensitive to transient accuracy. I have to admit, the difference between these filters (WTA2 vs no-WTA2) is a lot more subtle compared to the effect of M-Scaler. After all, changing the WTA2 would have a much less dramatic mathematical effect on transient accuracy compared to increasing the tap length to 1 million. But obviously, if one can hear the difference for WTA2, I suspect they are highly likely to be able to hear the difference M-Scaler makes.

I was wondering for those who found M-Scaler disappointing or amazing if they mind reporting whether they hear a difference between the filters.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top