Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread
Nov 28, 2018 at 5:50 AM Post #3,616 of 14,704

Amberlamps

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I just want to say to anyone who is buying, or thinking about buying an MScaler, don’t let my posts from yesterday put you off.

The MScaler does make a difference to the music, as can be seen by numerous threads and also members posts regarding the topic.

Just because I can’t, or find it very difficult to hear the difference between 1 million taps and passthrough, thats my problem and it could be caused by numerous factors at my end.

Trust me, if I thought for 1 second that I had bought something for 3.5 grand that didn’t work, I would post that it didn’t work and I wouldn’t be shy about doing so.

The only problem that I have noticed with the mscaler is just going from 1 million taps to passthrough and me not hearing a difference, but others can, so please don’t worry about it.

I will do some testing today, but I’m 100% positive that the mscaler works as Rob intended.

I have a funny feeling that where I have situated the mscaler, it’s right next to 2 pwm powered fans, which pulses electricity on and off at high rates and acts like an electromagnet thats being turned on and off many times a second, and thats right next to the usb cable going into the mscaler, so maybe where it’s situated doesn’t help ?
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 5:56 AM Post #3,617 of 14,704

Amberlamps

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Is the m scaler capable of switching back and forth between 1M taps and pass through instantaneously at a push of a button? Or is there a lag of some sort? Intuitively, if there was a lag, you would think the indicator light won't change until the switch is made. Maybe try skipping back to the beginning of the track after the switch?

Well, if only the people with good ears, headphones, or people with acoustically sound rooms can hear the difference, HMS may not be worth it to everyone. I hope this isn't the case and it'll blow my socks off

Yes and no, it’s easy to go from 1 million taps to passthrough, thats more or less instant, but going from passthrough to 1 million taps needs a few more button pushes and some more seconds to get back to it.
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 6:00 AM Post #3,618 of 14,704

seaice

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Can you hear the change on your se 846?
I did some more testing last night, and the only word I can easily use is to say the music sounded fuller on 1mil taps. There’s a 1 second cut when u switch which does make ab testing very difficult.
After a while I gave up, noted my headphones were singing very musically, got into a comfy position, fell into a mini transe, only to be pulled back out by my wife.
I have no doubt at all that mscaler makes these kind of experiences more accessible, you can fall into the music and go on that mini innerspace trip.

I have not tried SE846 in my HMS setup yet. It is mainly Susvara now. I play SE846 directly from my mobile (LG V20) but plan to try it with M-Scaled Hugo 2 when my H2 arrives.
 
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Nov 28, 2018 at 10:12 AM Post #3,619 of 14,704

jscmd2000

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I just want to say to anyone who is buying, or thinking about buying an MScaler, don’t let my posts from yesterday put you off.

The MScaler does make a difference to the music, as can be seen by numerous threads and also members posts regarding the topic.

Just because I can’t, or find it very difficult to hear the difference between 1 million taps and passthrough, thats my problem and it could be caused by numerous factors at my end.

Trust me, if I thought for 1 second that I had bought something for 3.5 grand that didn’t work, I would post that it didn’t work and I wouldn’t be shy about doing so.

The only problem that I have noticed with the mscaler is just going from 1 million taps to passthrough and me not hearing a difference, but others can, so please don’t worry about it.

I will do some testing today, but I’m 100% positive that the mscaler works as Rob intended.

I have a funny feeling that where I have situated the mscaler, it’s right next to 2 pwm powered fans, which pulses electricity on and off at high rates and acts like an electromagnet thats being turned on and off many times a second, and thats right next to the usb cable going into the mscaler, so maybe where it’s situated doesn’t help ?

That is a fantastic price!! considering its recent release... much less than what I paid for. Just curious whether you purchased from an authorized dealer and perhaps you might consider inquiring about warranty and possible repair or exchange. I would not be happy and certainly would not just settle if I cannot discern any improvement.

On a different note, does anyone have any experience with the Moon audio silver dragon bnc cable?
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 10:17 AM Post #3,620 of 14,704

yellowblue

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I just got the information from Wiebren at SBooster that you should not use the Ultra MKII with the SBooster 15-16V MKII because the Ultra cannot handle the peak-loads of the MScaler (something my dealer didn´t inform me about).
So be careful!
But the SBooster without the Ultra will stay - I really like it.
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 10:26 AM Post #3,621 of 14,704

SunWarrior

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That is a fantastic price!! considering its recent release... much less than what I paid for. Just curious whether you purchased from an authorized dealer and perhaps you might consider inquiring about warranty and possible repair or exchange. I would not be happy and certainly would not just settle if I cannot discern any improvement.

I believe that "3.5 grand" price is UK pounds, not US dollars. $5K for that currency.

(Or, what kind of discounts are US buyers of the M-Scaler finding off that $5K?)
 
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Nov 28, 2018 at 12:01 PM Post #3,622 of 14,704

Amberlamps

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Read the following as someone who is not an audiophile and who does not use audiophile buzzwords.

Today I have been listening to 1 album that I know very well, a chesky brothers 24bit 192khz binaural recording.


Hugo 2

I started with Hugo 2, some tracks that I was listening to had lots of sounds, instruments and vocals all at the same time, and basically merged into one big lump of sound. To make things worse, there was an increase and decrease in the volume of said sounds/instruments/vocals.

Hugo was good, no doubt about it. He handled the tracks well, but I did notice that the sound was more than a touch on the bright side. I haven’t used my Hugo on it’s own for months, or since I got the mscaler, and I had forgot just how bright hugo can be.

Anyway, on certains tracks, I noticed with Hugo alone, when there was a mixture of different sounds/instruments and vocals going on all at the same time, focusing on just one sound/instrument wasn’t that easy, as the other sounds were more or less interlaced/jumbled up with the sound that I was trying to focus on. At times I lost focus altogether, and I don’t recall Hugo ever being like that before.

Hugo 2 + MScaler.

As soon as the first song started, I noticed immediately that the sound was less bright overall, and it was “much easier” to “clearly” pick out and stay focused on whatever sound I wanted to follow, as the sounds/instruments and vocals were all clearly seperated from one another. They were more defined and easy to follow, compared to Hugo 2 on it’s own.

Not that Hugo on it’s own is bad, as it’s not, far from it. But it was instantly obvious to me that Hugo was brighter and had far less seperation compared to the hugo + mscaler.

I think listening to the mscaler for 1 solid month has made it easier for me to notice the lack of seperation on Hugo. Previously, I would never of said Hugo lacked seperation, but now that I have an mscaler, it is obvious.

The MScaler is definitely not a placebo or snake oil.


Hugo + MScaler + Passthrough

I couldn’t be bothered trying to even figure passthrough out, as I was listening to good tunes and I couldn’t be arsed getting wound up by something that doesn’t really matter and which I will never use.

If I decide to try and figure out passthrough later, I will just edit this post, but it’s unlikely.


 
Nov 28, 2018 at 12:03 PM Post #3,623 of 14,704

Amberlamps

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That is a fantastic price!! considering its recent release... much less than what I paid for. Just curious whether you purchased from an authorized dealer and perhaps you might consider inquiring about warranty and possible repair or exchange. I would not be happy and certainly would not just settle if I cannot discern any improvement.

On a different note, does anyone have any experience with the Moon audio silver dragon bnc cable?

£3500 is uk price.

There was always an improvement with the mscaler, the problem was more or less not noticing the difference between 1 million taps and Hugo’s 49’000 taps in passthrough mode.

Passthrough mode should disable the mscalers upsampling, but depending on the track used, it can range from obvious to subtle.

Passthrough mode is of limited use anyway, so it’s not something that should affect one’s purchasing decisions, as it’s very likely that 1, it won’t even be used, and 2, if used, we know it works, and works great.

:)
 
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Nov 28, 2018 at 12:09 PM Post #3,624 of 14,704

jscmd2000

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LOL I sure hope so, my tummy-ache feels better
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 12:15 PM Post #3,625 of 14,704

JaZZ

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Today I have been listening to 1 album that I know very well, a chesky brothers 24bit 192khz binaural recording.

(...)

Great news! And this although with 192 kHz recordings the M Scaler has the least beneficial effect! Bravo! :slight_smile:
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 12:33 PM Post #3,626 of 14,704

Rob Watts

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I listen to my Mscaler/Dave almost exclusively via loudspeakers, but the difference the HMS makes varies from noticeable to transformational. Very surprised at some of the comments here that they cannot tell a difference, very strange and certainly not my experience. However I have posted before that with certain tracks, most of my DSDs for example, the difference is less pronounced.

On a slightly different note I have a query/question for the more technically minded people here, maybe even #Rob Watts himself could offer an opinion. If my very basic understanding is correct (it is probably not!) , providing we sample an analogue signal at twice the rate of the highest frequency within that signal, theoretically (assuming a perfect DAC) we can perfectly reconstruct that waveform, as contrary to popular belief the waveform between sample points IS knowable. The only limiting factor is the 16 bits we allocate to give a finite value to each sample. The MScaler, using its 1M taps is able to reconstruct a 16bit 44.1kHz waveform perfectly (accepting any errors imposed by using only 16 bits to quantize the original signal)

If this is indeed the case are we saying that the future of Hi Res music lies in increased Bit length rather than increased sample rate? As the increased sample rate is only confirming what the MSCaler can already work out, the only way the signal can be 'improved' is by increasing the number of bits allocated to represent each sample point. Taking this further, are we also saying that any future MScaler2 with lets say 2 million taps, would then require at least a 24bit file in order to make use of those taps? (as 1million taps resolves the wave form to 16 bit accuracy)

If the transient timing error was random then I would agree - you would need 24 bits for larger than 1M taps. But the timing error is not entirely random, as it depends upon program material; hence the error could be correlated for some time, and that would make it more important than a dither noise (which is random and uncorrelated from sample to sample). I don't get the impression that M scaling a 24 bit source is a bigger difference than merely a 16 bit source though.


@Rob Watts - I am programming an extension in VLC media player for dynamically adjustable audio sync. Tap length for all models and modes work fine ...except for the M Video Mode of 666,666 taps which is claimed (in Chord literature) to result in a 104msec delay. However the math works out to a number much higher ...like 434msec. I know Video Mode is not a true WTA-1 filter. Can you shed light on how the Video Mode taps-to-delay math works? Thanks
Dan

The video mode is an asymmetric filter, so filtering that does not add to the delay is identical to the regular 1M taps, but the part that adds to delay is a much shorter filter.
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 1:15 PM Post #3,627 of 14,704

burbster

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If the transient timing error was random then I would agree - you would need 24 bits for larger than 1M taps. But the timing error is not entirely random, as it depends upon program material; hence the error could be correlated for some time, and that would make it more important than a dither noise (which is random and uncorrelated from sample to sample). I don't get the impression that M scaling a 24 bit source is a bigger difference than merely a 16 bit source though.




The video mode is an asymmetric filter, so filtering that does not add to the delay is identical to the regular 1M taps, but the part that adds to delay is a much shorter filter.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Rob, I am quite chuffed that you sort of agreed and I wasn't totally wrong in my assumptions (even though I was quite far from right!!) :)

From my own personal experience so far, and I appreciate its quite hard and very subjective to try and quantify 'improvements' in sound, but I would say that I notice the biggest difference MScaling a standard redbook CD, HOWEVER, and whilst you could argue the total level of improvement is not as big, what the MScaler does to some of my HiRes tracks pushes them into the realm of the truly spectacular!! (dramatic I know, but true!) I cant stop listening to my Doors collection, its driving the wife mad, but some of the tracks through the MScaler are just so addictive!!
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 1:36 PM Post #3,628 of 14,704

Amberlamps

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Great news! And this although with 192 kHz recordings the M Scaler has the least beneficial effect! Bravo! :slight_smile:

Yes, I was sure that the mscaler worked as intended, it was just the part where going from 1 million taps to passthrough that got to me. I still don’t understand whats happening but I suppose I never will.

I will admit, it did make me think that my mscaler may not be working properly. Had I bothered to try Hugo on it’s own, I would of realised the mscaler was infact doing it’s magic all the time.

I just thought the change down to passthrough would of been much more obvious.

I do the same with all my toys, no matter what they are. If there is an inconsistency that I can’t figure out, I go into OCD inspector gadget mode and I will either fix/solve whatever it was, or kill whatever it was, after ghetto surgery went wrong.

Have you ever cooked a video card in the oven or stuck a hard drive in the freezer ?

Neither have I, as those options can at times help broken hardware come back to life. My ghetto electronic repair skills never work.

I have a great Kill to Fix ratio of 257 / 1 and that 1 fix was just a new 5 amp fuse for the plug :)
 
Nov 28, 2018 at 1:48 PM Post #3,629 of 14,704

Deftone

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This afternoon i had the chance to try HTT2 and MScaler, using my HD650, the stores H800 and Hifiman Susvara using good recordings.

The TT2 on its own seems to be quite powerful and very dynamic with plenty of impact, better treble extension on 650s than i am used to, better sub bass rumble than what i heard on my hugo2, yes Its expensive but i liked it a lot.

With the HMS hooked up i didnt expect to hear any differences from the recent posts but i kept switching the passthrough quickly or after 40 second periods. to my ears the HMS made the sound worse, it sounded too soft and slower, i noticed first on HD800. I went back to just the TT2 after a while and i much prefer the unit on its own and looking forward to trying more equipment in the future but for now its marked off the strong interest to hear MScaler. i wish they had a Dave!
 
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Nov 28, 2018 at 2:34 PM Post #3,630 of 14,704

ufospls2

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This afternoon i had the chance to try HTT2 and MScaler, using my HD650, the stores H800 and Hifiman Susvara using good recordings.

The TT2 on its own seems to be quite powerful and very dynamic with plenty of impact, better treble extension on 650s than i am used to, better sub bass rumble than what i heard on my hugo2, yes Its expensive but i liked it a lot.

With the HMS hooked up i didnt expect to hear any differences from the recent posts but i kept switching the passthrough quickly or after 40 second periods. to my ears the HMS made the sound worse, it sounded too soft and slower, i noticed first on HD800. I went back to just the TT2 after a while and i much prefer the unit on its own and looking forward to trying more equipment in the future but for now its marked off the strong interest to hear MScaler. i wish they had a Dave!

How did you enjoy the Susvara with the TT2?
 

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