Huge sound difference CD v Hi Res

[old tech]

Just having a laugh watching this audio woo thread below on the Hoffman site, it is abit like visiting a astrology or homeopathy site. You can tell their more grounded members have to word their posts very carefully so it doesn't get deleted like some were earlier on because they also posted evidence, argued technical valid reasons or brought up the topic of expectation biases. Of course the absurd woo posts are never deleted as most the mods are magical thinkers too. But where do some of these people come from with claims such as huge difference between CD and hi res or, even more absurd, that vinyl is higher res than CD.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...ble-improvement-over-cd-quality-sound.724264/

 

[bigshot]

The psychology of internet forums is a fascinating thing. I wouldn't touch that particular forum with a ten foot pole. The problem usually isn't the posters, it's the moderation. Most of the time, forums like this pick moderators from the groups of the most active posters. The worst person to pick as a cop are people who want to police others. What happens is that the admin uses his position to build a nest around his group of friends and to punish anyone who questions them. That is a sure-fire way to create drama and shut down real discourse. I like forums where the admins don't try to direct the discussion. It's great to weed out trolls and give people a time out when they are getting too hot under the collar, but not to push an agenda or protect your friends from being questioned. I've got a list of these troublesome forums and I avoid them. Sometimes there is a sub forum that works much better than the rest of the site... (ahem ahem!) I have enough to keep me busy with the good forums. I've got no time for junk forums.

The only thing I really haven't found is a good interdisciplinary music forum. I've found good jazz forums and good classical forums and lots of discussion of rock music. But I haven't found a place where people with broad tastes in music congregate. (except in real life)

 

[bigshot]

By the way, I remember many years ago going through that same kind of thing in HeadFi. I bought an SACD player and I tried to find a way to do a controlled comparison of CD vs SACD. It was very difficult to arrange and when I posted about it, I got the same sort of fight from fanboys of hires with a wounded ego. Nowadays, I just cut to the chase and tell them there's no reason why SACD would sound any better than a CD and encourage them to set up a fair test to find out for themselves. The fanboys with the wounded egos rarely do.

My favorite post there is on page six where Steve Hoffman pops in with a three word answer to the question that everyone ignores.

 

[71 dB]

Nowadays, I just cut to the chase and tell them there's no reason why SACD would sound any better than a CD

There's actually reasons why SACD would sound better than a CD:

(1) Support for multichannel sound.
(2) SACDs are usually recorded and produced very well and even the downsampled Red Book layer of a hybrid SACD sounds great.

 

[sonitus mirus]

CD vs Hi Res? What about CD vs a copy of the CD or ALAC/FLAC vs CDA/WAV?

Look, I made an Echo Dot for audiophiles.

 

[bigshot]

Agreed on multichannel sound. But I haven't found that SACDs are mastered any better than normal CDs. My batting average is that about a quarter of them sound better, a quarter of them sound worse, and half of them sound just about the same. It's a wash. I suppose if you just bought CDs of things you know sound bad on CD, your batting average might be higher. But if I'm going to spend more buying another copy of something I already own, it's going to be something I already like. Most CDs I buy sound great, so that is the format I lean towards. There's also a lot more to choose from on CDs and the prices are usually very low.

 

[old tech]

The psychology of internet forums is a fascinating thing. I wouldn't touch that particular forum with a ten foot pole. The problem usually isn't the posters, it's the moderation. Most of the time, forums like this pick moderators from the groups of the most active posters. The worst person to pick as a cop are people who want to police others. What happens is that the admin uses his position to build a nest around his group of friends and to punish anyone who questions them. That is a sure-fire way to create drama and shut down real discourse. I like forums where the admins don't try to direct the discussion. It's great to weed out trolls and give people a time out when they are getting too hot under the collar, but not to push an agenda or protect your friends from being questioned. I've got a list of these troublesome forums and I avoid them. Sometimes there is a sub forum that works much better than the rest of the site... (ahem ahem!) I have enough to keep me busy with the good forums. I've got no time for junk forums.

The only thing I really haven't found is a good interdisciplinary music forum. I've found good jazz forums and good classical forums and lots of discussion of rock music. But I haven't found a place where people with broad tastes in music congregate. (except in real life)

I think you are on the money with the forum psychology. Just observing that CD/Hi Res thread I noticed several posts were deleted which linked peer review papers or which presented technical/human physiology information. In another post, the poor guy went to great length to explain why his 16/44 needledrops sound exactly like the records and his double blind tests to verify it but his post was deleted. Another suggested that differences may be due to expectation biases and placebo which was quickly deleted by the mods as insulting, even though based in science while another poster gets away with insults such as those who cannot hear differences need their heads examined, have crappy stereos etc and doesn't get deleted.

Your point around the non response to Hoffman's three word response is interesting. However just prior to that he claims that hi res produces a better midrange but offers no explanation as to why. Probably because any explanation would have to invoke psuedoscience which coming from an engineer is not a good look. A few years back when I used to participate on that forum, I had a debate with him over his claim that vinyl sounds exactly like the master tape whereas CD or hi res digital always sounds different. I pointed out that this is the opposite to what is generally accepted and the opposite to the studio experience of other well known engineers such as Ludwig, Whiteman etc. When he tried to justify his stance by claiming vinyl has a higher resolution than CDs, others chimed in to point out that this is impossible as vinyl has a bit depth equivalent of 10 to 13 bits. Steve responded with "Rubbish" but when challenged why it is "Rubbish" he no longer participated in that thread. So yeah no doubt he would choose his moderators quite carefully with those of similar woo thinking.

End rant/sorry.

 

[bigshot]

Steve Hoffman bounces back and forth from woo to real. That's why his admins are out of their league trying to keep up with him.