[ruthieandjohn]

 
Some people can tell the difference quite easily and most people on this thread seem to be able to tell the difference even between aptx and SBC. Bluetooth isn't really at the level yet where its shortcomings aren't noticeable but it is getting there.

If I have apt-x, which is said to be lossless at CD data rates, can I still tell that it is bluetooth instead of wired?  The only clue I can think of is if there are bit errors in transmission, right?  And while I know that some APT-X headphones are struggling with bit loss (Sennheiser Momentum MOEBT2 I think they are called... the over ear second generation blue tooth version of the Momentums, introduced last January then suspended availability), are not the others indistinguishable from wired?

 

[orion23rigel]

If I have apt-x, which is said to be lossless at CD data rates, can I still tell that it is bluetooth instead of wired?  The only clue I can think of is if there are bit errors in transmission, right?  And while I know that some APT-X headphones are struggling with bit loss (Sennheiser Momentum MOEBT2 I think they are called... the over ear second generation blue tooth version of the Momentums, introduced last January then suspended availability), are not the others indistinguishable from wired?

The difference is on bluetooth you're running a wireless chip, a dac, and an amp all on battery, and all those components must fit in the ear cups without negatively impacting the sound. There's a lot more going on than just the bit rate.

 

[n00b2]

  If I have apt-x, which is said to be lossless at CD data rates, can I still tell that it is bluetooth instead of wired?  The only clue I can think of is if there are bit errors in transmission, right?  And while I know that some APT-X headphones are struggling with bit loss (Sennheiser Momentum MOEBT2 I think they are called... the over ear second generation blue tooth version of the Momentums, introduced last January then suspended availability), are not the others indistinguishable from wired?

 
Aptx isn't CD quality lossless. Aptx lossless is. We don't have any headphones with the aptx lossless codec yet. Aptx is still compressed but it uses a superior compressing technology than SBC which makes it much harder to notice what has been compressed. A lot of people can't pick that it is aptx and not wired in a blind test as your normal bluetooth artifacts aren't as obvious / may not be there. Fine details being missing is harder to spot than artifacts and doesn't give away that it is bluetooth causing it and not the quality of the headphones themselves. So in that sense you may not be able to tell it is bluetooth when using aptx.
 
The real question of whether aptx is as good as wired is tested when using the same headphones in both ways and seeing if the wired sounds better. The problem with that is many bluetooth headphones seem to completely ignore wired quality (Parrot Zik being the biggest culprit) so it is hard to tell whether they would be better wired or not. And even with the ones that do sound good wired, it could be hard to directly compare because bluetooth has its own amp/DAC, unless you have an option to run them wired and powered using the internal DAC like the Symphony 1 and Momentum Wireless.
 
Of the ones I have tested where wired quality was good I could tell the difference between wired and aptx/SBC and the wired was easily the best. With my current favourite pair the Definitive Technology Symphony 1 order in terms of quality is USB>>3.5mm wired powered>>aptx>SBC>>>3.5mm wired unpowered (needs amp to sound good) and I can tell straight away which mode I am listening to. Couldn't get wired powered or USB confused with aptx/sbc at all as there are lots of little details that are missing on bluetooth. When I first tested it though (and not knowing how good it can be wired) I probably wouldn't have been able to pick if it was aptx if I was given a blind test. I felt the same with the Momentum Wireless and Harman Kardon BT. The difference between wired and bluetooth was very noticeable after trying both methods though (with Momentum at leasr) there wasn't really anything to give away that it was bluetooth straight away (though I felt with all of them that the difference between aptx and SBC was much smaller than the difference between wired and aptx).

 

[TonySunshine]

In case anyone is interested, here are some of my musings on the kickstarter funded Btunes
http://thebtunes.com/
 
Its a little dongle/attachment thing that turns a wired pair of headphones(that has a removable cable) into a wireless bluetooth one. Supports AptX and low latency Aptx and there are 2(or 3? I forget) different models to accommodate different models of headphones. I got it to use with my ATH-M50x's
 
Sound - consider me impressed. Compared to wired with the stock cable, using the btunes sounds just slightly more compressed/narrower sound stage. But for the most part, it sounds the same. I won't post my impressions on the sound sig of the M50x since there are literally 100's of threads about this on head-fi. But yes it sounds good, at least over AptX using my azio windows dongle and sony xperia z3. It also responds to EQ quite well.
 
Usage - ok so a couple of gripes. First, theres no volume control on the btunes unit. Its fairly small, so it only has a micro usb charging port and one button, which is called the "multi purpose" button. Basically its a power/play/pause/skip/pair button, but no control of the volume. So its a bit of a hassle I'm not used to, having to pull out my phone or whatever and raise/lower the volume instead of doing it directly from the headphone(like the Sony MDR-1ABT or any other BT headphone).
Other thing is the one button on the unit is very stiff and doesn't have much travel, so its hard to press. I can't turn it off while the headphones on my head because I'm afraid if I press too hard on the button it'll snap off the TRRS connector stem. Last gripe is that the unit looks kinda funny, and people think I'm wearing a pair of gaming headphones or something. Nice thing is that the color scheme matches the M50x very well, if thats your thing.
 
Battery life - no real comments here. have used it for 4 hours and still going. Manufacturer says it should head 10 hours of play time. Charges over micro usb
 
Microphone - so the reason the btunes is funny shaped is because it does include a microphone so you can use it as a BT headset. I haven't tested it nor do I ever plan to use it, so also no comments here.
 
Overall I think its a good product and a good deal. I paid ~50 USD for it on kickstarter, but now its up to $80. But Compared to the $200+ most BT headphones are, this is not a pretty good solution, especially you really like your wired headphones and just want the convenience of BT part of the time, and the rest of the time want to be able to hook up your headphones to your desktop amp or whatever.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 
 
 

 

[ruthieandjohn]

  In case anyone is interested, here are some of my musings on the kickstarter funded Btunes
http://thebtunes.com/

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

I had ordered a BTunes as well as one of the APT-X transmitters, in the hopes of outfitting my favorite-signature headphones with a lossless wireless capability.
 
But as their delivery got delayed more and more, I gave up, cancelled my order, and bought some AKG 845BT headphones, which have a great signature and work well (but are NOT APT-X).
 
Do you hear a difference in sound quality with the BTunes vs. the wired method of driving your headphones?  Sounds like the difference you heard was in the sound stage.  
 
And based on the recent post by n00b2, it seems that even APT-X is not lossless yet, so sound differences are par for the course.
 
Thanks!
 
(Oh, and since my true favorite signature headphones are Grados, and since they do not have removable cables to plug the BTunes into, I was settling for another good headphone that does have a removable cable, the Sennheiser HD 598.)

 

[TonySunshine]

yeah to me the difference between SBC/A2DP and Aptx bluetooth is noticeable enough. Its like 128kbps mp3 vs 320 Kbps mp3. But of course this depends a lot on the transmitter you use for bluetooth. The sound quality of AptX bluetooth compared to wired is "good enough" for me to justify the convenience of losing the cable. But the main reason I won't purchase a non-APTx audio product is that SBC requires a much larger buffer, meaning if you watch videos on your bluetooth devices and you're not using APTx you will get audio/video sync issues.
 
Yeah with the btunes and m50x, the sound quality difference between wired and wireless is negligible enough for me. The main difference is in the sound stage, which is slightly narrower with the btunes. I suspect this is the case since the m50x are very efficient headphones and easy to drive. But just to be clear I am comparing the headphone out on my Sony Xperia Z3(which is supposedly pretty good) to bluetooth aptx. The difference between the btunes driven m50x and a even an entry level amp(in my case, the Aune T1 and Fiio E17K) will be noticeable to most people.
 
I got the transmitter as well. nifty little thing that lets me go wireless even on devices that don't support APTx, like my work computer. I'm going to do some testing tonight of Xperia Z3 -> Fiio E17K/Apex Glacier -> btunes transmitter and see how that compares to amp wired to m50x.

 

[n00b2]

Originally Posted by kayandjohn /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
But as their delivery got delayed more and more, I gave up, cancelled my order, and bought some AKG 845BT headphones, which have a great signature and work well (but are NOT APT-X).

 
You sure about that? I remember earlier in the thread GioGio asked the AKG support guys and they said it actually does support aptx but they forgot to specify it on the box/instructions. I guess the only way to really test would be to listen to them using both an aptx and non aptx device and see if you can tell the difference but I wouldn't be surprised if they actually do support aptx.
 
 

  yeah to me the difference between SBC/A2DP and Aptx bluetooth is noticeable enough. Its like 128kbps mp3 vs 320 Kbps mp3. But of course this depends a lot on the transmitter you use for bluetooth. The sound quality of AptX bluetooth compared to wired is "good enough" for me to justify the convenience of losing the cable. But the main reason I won't purchase a non-APTx audio product is that SBC requires a much larger buffer, meaning if you watch videos on your bluetooth devices and you're not using APTx you will get audio/video sync issues.

 
Aptx on its own also does require a pretty large buffer. Smaller than SBC yes but it is still large enough to be able to notice the sync issues on most devices. Aptx low latency is the codec where you don't get any sync issues. Seems like more and more of the newer models support that codec now.

 

[turbobb]

   
You sure about that? I remember earlier in the thread GioGio asked the AKG support guys and they said it actually does support aptx but they forgot to specify it on the box/instructions. I guess the only way to really test would be to listen to them using both an aptx and non aptx device and see if you can tell the difference but I wouldn't be surprised if they actually do support aptx.

 
Per aptx.com, the AKG 845BT does feature aptx:
http://www.aptx.com/product/akg-k845bt-headphones
 
It's also mentioned on mfg page:
http://uk.akg.com/akg-product-detail_us/k845-black.html

 

[ruthieandjohn]

Per aptx.com, the AKG 845BT does feature aptx:
http://www.aptx.com/product/akg-k845bt-headphones

It's also mentioned on mfg page:
http://uk.akg.com/akg-product-detail_us/k845-black.html

YAYYY! Thanks!

 

[musicfreak]

I just finished reading al the posts in this thread, thanks for sharing al this information and experiences! With a budget of about 150 euro's I want to buy a decent headphone with good audioquality, I like a bit of warmth in it. I now own a pair of Grado SR80 and Koss Porta pro headphones which sound signature I both like.
A few weeks ago I bought a second hand Creative labs Hitz WP380 headphone. At first the sound seems ok to me, the bass was very firm and punchy, the highs were ok and gives much detail but after a while the lack of good mids and lower highs (they are quite recessed) makes me to look further, also because some equalization did not help.
After quite a few hours of reserch I have the following options, I've added links to the lesser known ones:
 
- Plantronics backbeat pro, second hand for about 130 euro's. Cons: a bit huge for use on my bike
- AKG Y45BT - costs abount 100 euro. Good quality from what I read, but with the somehat pronounced bass. Maybee the...
- Jabra Move - ...is better. However, I couldn't find good reviews of it. Don't cost much, only 65 euro's but don't seem to have aptX.
- MEElectronics Matrix2 / Ausdom M05 - Seems the same headphones. I read good reviews on Amazon and YouTube, but also bad ones elsewhere (also here), about the bass. A mixed bag it seems... 
- The last option, I found it in this thread, is the SuperTooth freedom that costs 75 euro. It's not that big as the Plantronics, but bigger than the AKG and I think the Jabra:
 
Quote:

Also how much difference between the Plantronics and SuperTooth Freedoms is there? The Freedoms are less than 1/2 price at the moment... Cheers for any advice...

 

The Supertooth have more mids than the Plantronics and less boosted bass, which I prefer for most rock and pop.
They also have lot less functions (no ANC, no Multipoint, no Open Mic, normal Aptx instead of Low Latency and Class 2 instead of Class 1 although these two things are of relevance only if you have a source which is Low latency and/or Class 1).
The Plantronics are more powerful in the bass and if you find it too much you can EQ it negatively.
The Supertooth have a good bass too anyway.
If you really find them so cheap and you do not need those extra functions of the Plantronics, go for them!
It would also be nice that another person here tries them and can give his opinion!

 
I hope you can help me out! 

 
 
Edit: I have a new contender: I can buy reurbished Philips M1BTBL (the precursor of the secondly listed M2BTBK) for 93 euro's...
Any suggestions about what to choose are welcome.

 

[aeromojito]

Not trying to hijack the thread but are there any good open air bluetooth headphones? My favorite Koss KSC75's don't have a mic or buttons. I have a Mocreo Clipper but they felt the need to "equalize" the sound and the built in microphone doesn't work very well either. I have looked at the Motorola S305 but I can't find any place local to listen to them. I also wonder if the low price ones on ebay are counterfeit. I would also be fine with a different bluetooth adapter but I just can't find any real reviews on them. I see Bluedio has several. I would like to stay under $40 if possible.
 
Thanks

 

[329161]

Some people can tell the difference quite easily and most people on this thread seem to be able to tell the difference even between aptx and SBC. Bluetooth isn't really at the level yet where its shortcomings aren't noticeable but it is getting there.

Abx testing? Otherwise it's probably expectation bias. I own both the Sony 1r and 1rbt ,and while they do sound different I wouldn't say the 1rbt sounds worse. They're both great good quality headphones and I'd happily live with the 1rbt on its own.

 

[n00b2]

Abx testing? Otherwise it's probably expectation bias. I own both the Sony 1r and 1rbt ,and while they do sound different I wouldn't say the 1rbt sounds worse. They're both great good quality headphones and I'd happily live with the 1rbt on its own.

 
Blind A/B testing is a good way to test and while a lot of people won't notice the difference, many audiophiles and non audiophiles as well will be able to pick them up easily (not necessarily pick its bluetooth but pick that it is worse sounding than the other one). Non audiophiles will probably not justify the price increase however. I have seen blind testing in the past where people spotted the differences pretty easily even people who didn't consider themselves audiophiles (and then there were people who couldn't tell or preferred the non audiophile headphone).
 
A comparison between the 1R and 1RBT won't really help with this discussion as they are basically the same headphone. Have you tried really high end headphones on a really high end amp? There are some pretty big differences between them and the 1RBT and 1R for example particularly on certain types of music, though not everyone who can tell will prefer the differences. For some people who can pick the differences it means everything to them. Bluetooth has come a long way but still isn't anywhere near that level.

 

[329161]

Blind A/B testing is a good way to test and while a lot of people won't notice the difference, many audiophiles and non audiophiles as well will be able to pick them up easily (not necessarily pick its bluetooth but pick that it is worse sounding than the other one). Non audiophiles will probably not justify the price increase however. I have seen blind testing in the past where people spotted the differences pretty easily even people who didn't consider themselves audiophiles (and then there were people who couldn't tell or preferred the non audiophile headphone).

A comparison between the 1R and 1RBT won't really help with this discussion as they are basically the same headphone. Have you tried really high end headphones on a really high end amp? There are some pretty big differences between them and the 1RBT and 1R for example particularly on certain types of music, though not everyone who can tell will prefer the differences. For some people who can pick the differences it means everything to them. Bluetooth has come a long way but still isn't anywhere near that level.

Can you provide a link to these tests? I'd like to see the results.
I gave the example of the 1r and 1rbt as an example of wired vs bt performance. The fact that they are "basically the same headphone" but one is wired and one is bt makes the comparison VERYrelevant to this discussion. Btw we're not arguing the difference between "really high end headphones on a really high end amp" vs Bluetooth. We're discussing wired vs bt performance from the same source.
Ps. I listen to high bit rate AAC and MP3 through Bluetooth and I don't notice any degradation in sound. When I listen to YouTube videos via bt, however, there is a very noticeable degradation in sound because YouTube audio is limited to 192kbps max.
Are you familiar with the thread titled "Testing Audiophile Claims and Myths"? If not then you should have a search and read it. Quite an eye opener. That is if you believe in scientific rather than anecdotal evidence.

 

[n00b2]

Can you provide a link to these tests? I'd like to see the results.
I gave the example of the 1r and 1rbt as an example of wired vs bt performance. The fact that they are "basically the same headphone" but one is wired and one is bt makes the comparison VERYrelevant to this discussion. Btw we're not arguing the difference between "really high end headphones on a really high end amp" vs Bluetooth. We're discussing wired vs bt performance from the same source.
Ps. I listen to high bit rate AAC and MP3 through Bluetooth and I don't notice any degradation in sound. When I listen to YouTube videos via bt, however, there is a very noticeable degradation in sound because YouTube audio is limited to 192kbps max.
Are you familiar with the thread titled "Testing Audiophile Claims and Myths"? If not then you should have a search and read it. Quite an eye opener. That is if you believe in scientific rather than anecdotal evidence.

 
The tests were ones I saw in person (or participated in myself) so no links unfortunately. There is an aptx vs SBC blind test here which you can try if you want and see if you can spot the difference. There will probably be others on the net somewhere (maybe soundexpert?) like the FLAC vs mp3 ones that are everywhere which could give you some results.
 
My response was to the question about bluetooth headphones becoming audiophile accepted and hence seeing bluetooth headphones get called audiophile quality. I don't consider the 1RBT vs 1R relevant in this instance as the 1R isn't really an audiophile headphone/setup like a high end headphone + amp would be. Once bluetooth or wireless in general can match those setups then it would be interesting to see what audiophiles think of bluetooth. Bluetooth still has a long way to go before it can match that. As for comparing wired vs bt performance from the same source I've already discussed my feelings on that a few posts ago. That is that wired should sound better if using the same or similar headphones until bluetooth is capable of lossless transmission, though it doesn't always do so (again whether people can spot the difference or not is subjective).
 
If you are asking about acceptance of bluetooth as a reasonable technology for audio then that is already starting amongst some audiophiles. Some of the reviews of the recent generation of headphones have been quite favourable towards bluetooth albeit some of them rather begrudgingly. There was a reviewer I think of Pendulumic Stance S1+ who thought something was wrong with his ears at first as it sounded better then the wired models he tried. Can't remember the link now but it was about some expo like CanJam and should be easy enough to find. The more higher end bluetooth headphones that get released (and the more widely available they become) the more acceptance there will be of bluetooth in general, at least for portable headphones. Some audiophiles will always claim otherwise but that sort of attitude is there with everything.
 
And yes I am familiar with that thread. I agree with a lot of things on there and have disputed a lot of audiophile claims myself in real life. I don't agree though that no one can tell the difference between bluetooth and wired transmission or that all audiophile claims are myths. As with anything scientific there are always exceptions to the rule. Anecdotal evidence can't just be cast aside as false because it goes against science when there is too much of it. That's basically the same attitude that some audiophiles put out in reverse.