carlo
Founder of 5 in heavy rotation
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2001
- Posts
- 1,270
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- 10
Hirsch,
Great post in this thread man. I agree with you about “neutrality” compared to music. Real music doesn’t sound like anything but music; when components try to measure well and lose coloration we both know that too often there’s only sounds but not music. That certainly isn’t neutrality. Throw on top the evilness of digital compared to the godliness of analogue, CD isn’t something I can give up completely, and I want warmth. I want a little extra in the midrange and at the end of instruments. I want vocals to sound more alive. Components that do stay; the audiophileness of everything else is the only way I think we can describe the sounds, if not the reality, of the note.
Since (hopefully) no one considering the R10 and HP-1 cares about measured frequency response and blah blah, but rather the ability to make music, I can see why R10 is the choice of many. Boze tells me I have not spent enough time with the headphone (Edwin kindly let me listen to his for a few hours), and I think he might be right. Sometimes the really good ones grow on me and the strengths far outweigh the flaws. I agree with a lot of what R-10 owners say when they make the argument that it’s the best headphone. I also don’t think the biggest argument is said often enough: (when its powered adequately) the R-10 sounds pretty *******ed good. I’ve mentioned it before, for me R10+EAR HP4+DCC pressing of Joni Mitchell’s Blue made music. Pure music, I had her right in front of me, close enough that my eyes closed because I didn’t want to see anything but her. I told you about my first (and only time) with Quad ESLs, how it was the first time I really heard music through a stereo system. Above with the R-10 is one of the times I’d had it since. That’s rare for me.
Rob,
Really, HP-1 is all time special. With it there’s no signature to compensate for, no frequency anomalies I want to smooth or help out, nothing – nothing is perfect and in this case the stage isn’t deep and wide, but focused and layered and to me that’s better. I’ve grooved to some great speakers and can’t think of a dynamic pair I can say that about. I’m of the philosophy that the strengths of headphones are immediacy, impact, speed, and transient response. The HP-1 gets those things so right that instruments’ locations, relative to one another, is precise and consistent. Its really something to hear when there’s a great source and amp behind them.
HP-1 owners don’t obsess about amps like R10 owners do, there’s enough amps with enough signatures and when we find our one we don’t need to look any more. Since R10 owners seem to look for an amp that make up for flaws while keeping her strengths they tend to go through amps faster. The signature of the R10 is, as I tried to say above, very engaging. However its also so glaring in what it does to get that seduction, that pleasing and initially involving sound, that I’ll bet it can never get the attack and punch and non-exaggerated soundstage I look for. HP-1 owners also seem to try more sources than R10 owners, I think this is because HP-1 owners aren’t auditioning anything but what’s upstream while the latter are still trying to compensate for the headphone’s signature (or, the R10’s flavor compensates for the source). The people who own both are the exceptions. That’s very interesting to me.
(to anyone reading this and thinking this is an attack or whatever: I’d like to clarify that I’m only making an observation from what I’ve read on this forum from owners, and speaking from experience after trying a few headphones and many speakers. Really, this is how its been for me with just about every transducer I’ve tried)
So since amps have a signature (yes, I do think all amps have a signature, including its ability to make music instead of sounds), and since there’s so many quality amps to choose from with signatures less dramatic/restricting than every other dynamic headphone I’ve heard, I think the HP-1 is the choice if you eventually want to end up with a system that just makes music. Not compensates or synergy or whatever, music. HP-1 and EAR HP4 offer an amazingly well placed soundstage and nice decay on acoustics. No balls but if you don’t need the dynamic swing you’ve found a hell of a rig. Meier PreHead gives you an extremely clean presentation, nice balance across the spectrum and not too much or too little of anything in frequency response. Headroom Max with stepped attenuator is easy on the ears and effortless on bass, if you listen to music from the ground (bass lines) up then it might be the amp for you. Sugden has the smoothness, and with some help a presentation as balanced as the Prehead but with emphasis on tone and less detail (instead of the PreHead’s emphasis on detail and at times dry presentation). I Maestrobate, it gives me all the audiophile stuff I want and the music, the emotion, I’ve been looking for from my home system. At this very moment I'm using a Marantz 2220B out of my M-Audio Sonica at a friend's place, pretty damned good and I can hear the greatness of this vintage amp - HP-1 doesn't hide anything but Joe Grado squeezed much magic into the chambers. Since you’re not making up for flaws (you just want something that can adequately drive the headphone and who’s signature fits your tastes), and if you’re okay giving up the scale of stage of the Sony for the layering and non-emphasis of location, you’ll have better control in finding what you want with the Grado.
But, and this is a big one, make sure you find them comfortable. The pair I have used to be smokey’s, and they were so uncomfortable for him he can’t care what they sound like (I’m the same way with Etys). Jude has said similar things about his pair. I’m lucky, my Grado rule is five minutes without the headphones between albums, and I can listen all day. However others have posted about such extreme discomfort that I understand why it will never be the headphone for them. If you have similar problems the purchase of HP-1 in today’s market could be an expensive gamble – selling an R10 bought new and in mint condition might be a safer bet than a used pair of discontinued headphones who’s price is dynamic – remember Head-Fiers are a finicky bunch and prices for everything is cyclic.
So anyway, vote for HP-1 even though I’ve only tried (not owned) R10. I’m biased however; HP-1 fits my tastes perfectly and I love it, more than pie even. It’s the headphone I used to tune my amp, the one I’ll grab for first when auditioning something new, the one that gets me lost in recording, in every way my reference. I still think of the R10 as one that seduced but didn't satisfy. A great one night stand, need another shot with it
Great post in this thread man. I agree with you about “neutrality” compared to music. Real music doesn’t sound like anything but music; when components try to measure well and lose coloration we both know that too often there’s only sounds but not music. That certainly isn’t neutrality. Throw on top the evilness of digital compared to the godliness of analogue, CD isn’t something I can give up completely, and I want warmth. I want a little extra in the midrange and at the end of instruments. I want vocals to sound more alive. Components that do stay; the audiophileness of everything else is the only way I think we can describe the sounds, if not the reality, of the note.
Since (hopefully) no one considering the R10 and HP-1 cares about measured frequency response and blah blah, but rather the ability to make music, I can see why R10 is the choice of many. Boze tells me I have not spent enough time with the headphone (Edwin kindly let me listen to his for a few hours), and I think he might be right. Sometimes the really good ones grow on me and the strengths far outweigh the flaws. I agree with a lot of what R-10 owners say when they make the argument that it’s the best headphone. I also don’t think the biggest argument is said often enough: (when its powered adequately) the R-10 sounds pretty *******ed good. I’ve mentioned it before, for me R10+EAR HP4+DCC pressing of Joni Mitchell’s Blue made music. Pure music, I had her right in front of me, close enough that my eyes closed because I didn’t want to see anything but her. I told you about my first (and only time) with Quad ESLs, how it was the first time I really heard music through a stereo system. Above with the R-10 is one of the times I’d had it since. That’s rare for me.
Rob,
Really, HP-1 is all time special. With it there’s no signature to compensate for, no frequency anomalies I want to smooth or help out, nothing – nothing is perfect and in this case the stage isn’t deep and wide, but focused and layered and to me that’s better. I’ve grooved to some great speakers and can’t think of a dynamic pair I can say that about. I’m of the philosophy that the strengths of headphones are immediacy, impact, speed, and transient response. The HP-1 gets those things so right that instruments’ locations, relative to one another, is precise and consistent. Its really something to hear when there’s a great source and amp behind them.
HP-1 owners don’t obsess about amps like R10 owners do, there’s enough amps with enough signatures and when we find our one we don’t need to look any more. Since R10 owners seem to look for an amp that make up for flaws while keeping her strengths they tend to go through amps faster. The signature of the R10 is, as I tried to say above, very engaging. However its also so glaring in what it does to get that seduction, that pleasing and initially involving sound, that I’ll bet it can never get the attack and punch and non-exaggerated soundstage I look for. HP-1 owners also seem to try more sources than R10 owners, I think this is because HP-1 owners aren’t auditioning anything but what’s upstream while the latter are still trying to compensate for the headphone’s signature (or, the R10’s flavor compensates for the source). The people who own both are the exceptions. That’s very interesting to me.
(to anyone reading this and thinking this is an attack or whatever: I’d like to clarify that I’m only making an observation from what I’ve read on this forum from owners, and speaking from experience after trying a few headphones and many speakers. Really, this is how its been for me with just about every transducer I’ve tried)
So since amps have a signature (yes, I do think all amps have a signature, including its ability to make music instead of sounds), and since there’s so many quality amps to choose from with signatures less dramatic/restricting than every other dynamic headphone I’ve heard, I think the HP-1 is the choice if you eventually want to end up with a system that just makes music. Not compensates or synergy or whatever, music. HP-1 and EAR HP4 offer an amazingly well placed soundstage and nice decay on acoustics. No balls but if you don’t need the dynamic swing you’ve found a hell of a rig. Meier PreHead gives you an extremely clean presentation, nice balance across the spectrum and not too much or too little of anything in frequency response. Headroom Max with stepped attenuator is easy on the ears and effortless on bass, if you listen to music from the ground (bass lines) up then it might be the amp for you. Sugden has the smoothness, and with some help a presentation as balanced as the Prehead but with emphasis on tone and less detail (instead of the PreHead’s emphasis on detail and at times dry presentation). I Maestrobate, it gives me all the audiophile stuff I want and the music, the emotion, I’ve been looking for from my home system. At this very moment I'm using a Marantz 2220B out of my M-Audio Sonica at a friend's place, pretty damned good and I can hear the greatness of this vintage amp - HP-1 doesn't hide anything but Joe Grado squeezed much magic into the chambers. Since you’re not making up for flaws (you just want something that can adequately drive the headphone and who’s signature fits your tastes), and if you’re okay giving up the scale of stage of the Sony for the layering and non-emphasis of location, you’ll have better control in finding what you want with the Grado.
But, and this is a big one, make sure you find them comfortable. The pair I have used to be smokey’s, and they were so uncomfortable for him he can’t care what they sound like (I’m the same way with Etys). Jude has said similar things about his pair. I’m lucky, my Grado rule is five minutes without the headphones between albums, and I can listen all day. However others have posted about such extreme discomfort that I understand why it will never be the headphone for them. If you have similar problems the purchase of HP-1 in today’s market could be an expensive gamble – selling an R10 bought new and in mint condition might be a safer bet than a used pair of discontinued headphones who’s price is dynamic – remember Head-Fiers are a finicky bunch and prices for everything is cyclic.
So anyway, vote for HP-1 even though I’ve only tried (not owned) R10. I’m biased however; HP-1 fits my tastes perfectly and I love it, more than pie even. It’s the headphone I used to tune my amp, the one I’ll grab for first when auditioning something new, the one that gets me lost in recording, in every way my reference. I still think of the R10 as one that seduced but didn't satisfy. A great one night stand, need another shot with it
