[webbie64]

When it all comes down to it I like detailed, accurate highly resolved music that clearly gives me the audio cues to exact location of instruments and voices, both in the breadth of a wide, realistic soundstage as well as up and down its accurately recreated depth.

But it can't be cold, metallic or digital. Yet it also needs to be precise in sense of environment - echo, decay, micro detail... It needs to have accuracy yet, for lack of a better term, warmth. The bass needs to be all there yet punchy, not muddy whilst the highs need to be clear, resonant, almost crisp yet not edgy, harsh or digital.

So far I've found this synergy best with an Apuresound DAC (similar to a Grace M902 in character and output) feeding Moon Audio Silver Dragons to a Woo Audio GES to Sennheiser HE60s. The (well burned in) Silver Dragon crispness is complimented by the warm nature of the GES to provide the HE60s with a broad, balanced and very realistic/accurate sound across all frequencies.

Of course it is still somewhat program dependent - it can only resolve what it's fed - but it definitely has a deeper and wider accurate soundstage than anything else I've heard. I reckon it still has potential for improvement but it is 92-93% of the way there. I guestimate only some of the last 7-8% is achievable and mainly through very expensive upgrades to source (e.g the only Apuresound CDP-1 in existence) and amplification (e.g. a maxed out Singlepower ES-1). If Apuresound electrostatic headphones are developed, I'd gamble they'd be the most likely improvement on the HE60s - maybe the venerable HE90s could argue a potential improvement too, if I could access a set (http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247440).

Until this setup my compromise was in the drive/punchiness of the bass - I still think it's a little tubby but it's better than before. And, without realising it, the accuracy of soundstage, particularly depth - it wasn't that there was bunching, it's just that there's even more precision & accuracy of location information than there was prior to the Silver Dragons.

What do you find to be your compromises? Do you prefer to lose warmth for accuracy? Or is it better for you to have a slightly mixed detail to gain a sense of better musicality?

I'd still love to further refine (tweak?) my main system and I'm now turning some attention to my portable rig (currently iRiver H120 WAVs through Apuresound mini-to-mini to RSA Hornet feeding Westone UM2s). I've seen suggestions an iMod might provide better lineout and the UM2s definitely have recessed - though still reasonably accurate (for IEMs) - highs. I agree with reviewers that the well burned-in Hornet provides one of the best SQ outputs for size and cost (Yes, I have read Move reviews and am also thinking about the Xin Reference - will it truly become Xin's 'signature' work?)

Anyway, thoughts and comments are always appreciated

 

[spritzer]

I'm a neutrality junky and the only way for me to cope was to upgrade everything with the best parts available. This means best film caps, soft silver wire everywhere, better connectors with minimal mass and no shielding. No power filtering except a couple of caps here and there and a dedicated line. Very expensive and I'm nowhere near to accomplish it but I'll get there. A neutral system has warmth when it is called for and can be cold if that is what it takes. Above all else it is musically satisfying with lean and quick bass and no overhang. Pair it with a source that is good with bad recordings and great with the good ones and it is hard to take the phones off your head.

You should start off with trying some naturally insulated silver wires instead of the Dragons. Getting rid off the teflon was a revelation for me as it causes extreme time smear with the high frequencies. This will be very noticeable with either of the Sennheiser HE units. Teflon has its uses as a high voltage insulator but it shouldn't come near a line level signal.

If the GES is stock it has a lot of bottled up potential that is held back by the parts quality. Just changing out the coupling caps for something halfway decent will give you a large boost in SQ. It is built to a price and it shows but it won't be cheap to upgrade it. A maxed out ES-1 is far from the best you can get and IMO it is way too overpriced. There isn't really any limit to how much an ES amp can cost since there are always better transformers, caps, wire, resistors, switches and of course bigger tubes.

I don't know much about your dac but there is always room for improvement. Whether it is worth the cost is the big question. I do prefer the older high end models to the current stuff, not that there aren't many good models out there but they are pretty expensive. You will always get a much better deal with an older TOTL model and then have it modded with better parts. Those that say digital has progressed in the las 20 years don't really know what they are talking about. Making everything sterile and bright isn't progress...

On the headphones front, the He90 is much better then the 60 but they are also quite different and in my eyes not worth the current pricetag. If you haven't tried any of the Stax high end lineup you should. Stax has never aimed for the slightly flashy, in your face, sound of Sennheiser so they seem to be more laid back but with much better bass. They are a beast to drive though so the GES might need to be replaced...

 

[webbie64]

Thanks, spritzer - always good to hear from you.

"musically satisfying with lean and quick bass and no overhang" is an excellent summary of what seems to be the most difficult final aspect to achieve.

Your comments on teflon are well noted - "Naturally insulated silver wires instead of the Dragons" - do you have any specific suggestions?

Please don't take offence but to me you are the ultimate electrostatic amp electronics tweaker (o.k., Carl has a preference for this too

). I'm just not so inclined, nor necessarilly skilled in this area, to want to "change out the coupling caps for something halfway decent (will give you a large boost in SQ)". Maybe when you and Carl are not distracted with your current project I should discuss with you both the options and costs, and get Carl (being much closer in NZ) to take it on?

I agree with your comment - "Those that say digital has progressed in the las 20 years don't really know what they are talking about". I was dismayed at how difficult it was to find a source to at least match, if not better, what I already had. Alex's DAC definitely does this. Yes, dollars might wield further improvements but not at a cost/benefit ratio I can support.

I'm yet to hear the HE90 but would like to at least try it - I also doubt that the improvements would be worth the $$$ but you never know...

I've briefly tried O2s (and would willingly try O1s if anybody reading this wants to offer me the chance!) but I preferred the added detail I could get from the HE60s (at cost of bass) in comparison to the extraordinary O2 bass that suppressed that detail for me. Of course I have no doubt you would identify the need for the electronics feeding both to be much improved for a fairer comparison but perhaps that is where my own budget constraints will lead to my final compromise...

"They are a beast to drive though so the GES might need to be replaced...". Yes, the GES doesn't have the headroom the EA-4 does (yes, I know you aren't necessarilly a McAllister fan but it does have more power available!).

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks, spritzer - always good to hear from you. "musically satisfying with lean and quick bass and no overhang" is an excellent summary of what seems to be the most difficult final aspect to achieve. Your comments on teflon are well noted - "Naturally insulated silver wires instead of the Dragons" - do you have any specific suggestions?

Systems tend to be either warm or cold and the owners are very happy with it because they don't know any better. It is easy to point to personal preference but you can only prefer something if you know the alternatives very well. Those that haven't heard a relatively neutral system for an extended time don't know what they are missing.

It was this that got me interested in natural insulation and low mass conductors. You can either build it or buy it ready made from him. HE also has all of the parts at a pretty good price. There are others but they are more complex and use more expensive conductors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please don't take offence but to me you are the ultimate electrostatic amp electronics tweaker (o.k., Carl has a preference for this too ). I'm just not so inclined, nor necessarilly skilled in this area, to want to "change out the coupling caps for something halfway decent (will give you a large boost in SQ)". Maybe when you and Carl are not distracted with your current project I should discuss with you both the options and costs, and get Carl (being much closer in NZ) to take it on?

It is pretty easy to swap caps but there is always some danger involved so don't do it if you aren't comfortable with high voltage.

The coupling caps are directly in the signal path so any upgrades there will open up the sound a great deal. Great coupling caps aren't cheap but the good ones aren't that bad. They are too expensive to be used in a retail amp as the amp costs much more then just the parts that go into it to the builder so he is always limited by the budget.

Sending a pretty heavy amp all the way up here would be a little nuts but you could ask Carl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with your comment - "Those that say digital has progressed in the las 20 years don't really know what they are talking about". I was dismayed at how difficult it was to find a source to at least match, if not better, what I already had. Alex's DAC definitely does this. Yes, dollars might wield further improvements but not at a cost/benefit ratio I can support.

The cost is stopping me as well. I can buy something like the Esoteric X-01 and have it modded but it just isn't as much fun as buying something vintage and doing it your self. You can buy something like an old 777 Sony player for next to nothing and a few easy mods it will sing. While the DAC's are "better" today, almost every thing else is worse including the transports, parts, chassis etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm yet to hear the HE90 but would like to at least try it - I also doubt that the improvements would be worth the $$$ but you never know...

At almost 10k the He90 isn't really worth it but you could like it enough. It should work really well out of your GES.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've briefly tried O2s (and would willingly try O1s if anybody reading this wants to offer me the chance!) but I preferred the added detail I could get from the HE60s (at cost of bass) in comparison to the extraordinary O2 bass that suppressed that detail for me. Of course I have no doubt you would identify the need for the electronics feeding both to be much improved for a fairer comparison but perhaps that is where my own budget constraints will lead to my final compromise...

It appears you've heard a badly fitted and underpowered SR-007. You can tune it by bending the metal arcs so that it is almost bass light. You need to hear it driven by a good amp and have them modeled after your head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif "They are a beast to drive though so the GES might need to be replaced...". Yes, the GES doesn't have the headroom the EA-4 does (yes, I know you aren't necessarilly a McAllister fan but it does have more power available!).

I'd just like McAllister to settle down on a good design and use a better chassis and some better parts here and there. I'm not to keen on people that use the customer as a beta-tester.

 

[webbie64]

Thanks for the response, spritzer.
Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...It was this that got me interested in natural insulation and low mass conductors. You can either build it or buy it ready made from him. HE also has all of the parts at a pretty good price. There are others but they are more complex and use more expensive conductors

When Alex [AK]Zip went on holidays and I couldn't get some of his ICs I got a set of VH Cryo Pulsar ICs and was quite impressed with what they delivered. This DIY Silver model seems more than affordable and within my skillset (You'll move me down the DIY path yet!).
Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...It is pretty easy to swap caps but there is always some danger involved so don't do it if you aren't comfortable with high voltage. The coupling caps are directly in the signal path so any upgrades there will open up the sound a great deal. Great coupling caps aren't cheap but the good ones aren't that bad.

Caps also seem within my capabilities - I just haven't done anything like it before with such high grade audio equipment so it's probably more my own nerves I need to calm.

. I'll review your entries on recommended coupling caps but if you can post me any useful links, that'd be appreciated.
Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...It appears you've heard a badly fitted and underpowered SR-007. You can tune it by bending the metal arcs so that it is almost bass light. You need to hear it driven by a good amp and have them modeled after your head...

I'll see what I can do with an SR-007 at the next Sydney Meet (scheduled for August I believe when juzmister returns from OS).
Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...I'd just like McAllister to settle down on a good design and use a better chassis and some better parts here and there. I'm not to keen on people that use the customer as a beta-tester.

I understand your comments regarding "customer as a beta-tester": I just haven't viewed Peter as quite in that league like Xin (portable amps) and Grover (ICs). Not that I don't currently possess products from all three of these HeadFi-ers, I just share that frustration when the latter two appear to release a 'new improved' version so soon after the previous release. IMHO Peter's upgrades take more time and consider more feedback and options before an upgraded release - but then again his products are probably a bit more complex to upgrade than the other two?

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the response, spritzer. When Alex [AK]Zip went on holidays and I couldn't get some of his ICs I got a set of VH Cryo Pulsar ICs and was quite impressed with what they delivered. This DIY Silver model seems more than affordable and within my skillset (You'll move me down the DIY path yet!).

DIY is always the way to go.

Stick some pretty Techflex on them and it is a killer IC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Caps also seem within my capabilities - I just haven't done anything like it before with such high grade audio equipment so it's probably more my own nerves I need to calm. . I'll review your entries on recommended coupling caps but if you can post me any useful links, that'd be appreciated.

You should read this. While in no way nothing more then a simple review it is a good guide. I like the Munderf Silver/Oil caps as they sound good, aren't horrendously expensive and have a 1200v rating which is very good for our world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll see what I can do with an SR-007 at the next Sydney Meet (scheduled for August I believe when juzmister returns from OS).

When you audition it try and put a hand on each cup (watch out for the backwave) and change the angle of the drivers relative to your ears while they are on your head. Try not to break the seal (slight tear sound) as that will give a false positive in the bass region. Since they were designed without a swivel mount this is very important. You should also try to have the seam on the earpad pointing towards the temple for best performance but this depends on the user.

Quote:

Originally Posted by webbie64 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand your comments regarding "customer as a beta-tester": I just haven't viewed Peter as quite in that league like Xin (portable amps) and Grover (ICs). Not that I don't currently possess products from all three of these HeadFi-ers, I just share that frustration when the latter two appear to release a 'new improved' version so soon after the previous release. IMHO Peter's upgrades take more time and consider more feedback and options before an upgraded release - but then again his products are probably a bit more complex to upgrade than the other two?

His products are a lot more complex and he isn't alone in shipping out products that should never have passed QC. Singlepower has shipped out a few ES-1's with issues and Rudistor as well. It happens but Peter should spend a bit more money on the chassis and better parts and the he would have one hell of an amp. Heck I'd even buy one...

 

[xenithon]

If I had to choose, I would always pick "warm and fuzzy" over something which is "cold". I find cans which are often described as neutral or accurate as being too clinical and lacking life, sparkle, and musicality.

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenithon /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I had to choose, I would always pick "warm and fuzzy" over something which is "cold". I find cans which are often described as neutral or accurate as being too clinical and lacking life, sparkle, and musicality.

Neutral cans are often designed for studios and they are never neutral. There is always a tend to make them detailed, analytical and cold. With real neutrality comes musicality since the system just plays what it is fed. It's not for everybody but if you like electrostatics the odds are you belong to the neutrality camp.

 

[ken36]

I believe my present rig (sig below) is pretty much as you describe. It is somewhat costly, however the Wadia DAC is as good as I've heard, so I didn't have to keep my Stello. I love the hardwired Apuresound headphone/pigtail cables.

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken36 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe my present rig (sig below) is pretty much as you describe. It is somewhat costly, however the Wadia DAC is as good as I've heard, so I didn't have to keep my Stello. I love the hardwired Apuresound headphone/pigtail cables.

Wadia has always tried to be neutral but it has given them a cold/analytical reputation as they've been used in systems not ready for the middle ground.

Hardwired is good. If only it was so easy to reterminate electrostatic headphones...

 

[wower]

hahha

VERY GOOD QUESTION!

I've decided the only solution to this problem is to have two systems. A Stax system (I'm in Japan!) for Classical. And a Tube/dynamic system for everything else. I only started to like classical music when I could have some idea as to the realistic size/scale of the orchestra, as soon as I could here that, I was hooked. And it's the detail that makes this possible. Rock OTOH needs its flaws covered in order to be free.